Struggling with live setup

[Aidenn7]

Dude just get a Nathan east magic box.. Ohmnicab.. Mxr mini iso power supply.. Wireless iems and you set.. That's a cool fretless tone..

 

[agedhorse]

This might be a good time to investigate a single higher powered head that's 2 ohm capable and modular 112 or 115 cabinets. That way you can scale your rig to the gig. The higher the quality of the rig, the easier it will be to effectively achieve your goals.

 

[Jack]

The Kemper sounds like massive overkill for your country rock band, but you already own it and it'll drive the power amp easily. Use that into whatever cabinets you can. Probably the 2x12".

I do agree with the previous comments though, you've got some really cool amps, head and pedals, and the cabinets don't really match up. I suppose that's because you're a studio bassist! Nicer cabs would undoubtedly help...

 

[Wallace320]

I’m a lifelong engineer who’s played session bass for 30+ years. I’m looking for insight into simplifying/improving my live setup.

The story...I have a rare neuro-muscle disease and use mostly instruments I have made to suit my condition. I like clean bass with no boink. Mostly fretless. I don’t mind some grit, and I NEED my optical compressor bc I play a strange thumb style and it’s my blanket lol.

I haven’t played live that much since the 90s. But I’ve been dipping toes back into it. My gear has to be very light and modular. Many of our shows are on bigger stages and outdoors.

I have some pedals (Sans Amp and TC Forcefield), a BQ 500 head, 2 Elf 1x10s(each is 8ohms), a homemade 1x12 4ohm eminence delta12LF, and a 2x12 with Celestion Pulse speakers (4ohm total). I also have a Behringer NX3000 amp which CAN drive 2ohms. I use a Kemper toaster in the studio. Never taken it live.

I really thought 500w into the 2 Elf 1x10 or my 2x12 would cover most shows. But we’ve been doing bigger stages, festivals, outdoors, and bass many times isn’t getting much or any PA help. I’m farting speakers out when I hit Fs and the BQ Is jacked.

So I need to run a bigger setup. My BQ500 can only do 4ohms. So I either need 2 heads (an extra to power the 4ohm 1x12), Or I can bypass the BQ, and use the Behringer power amp. That could power Any combination of speakers.

But the power amp requires a preamp, which my Sans Amp VT driver does ok, not great... and it’s noisy as hell. Add in my compressor, and it gets worse. and then I need a decent rack Eq then bc the sans amp isn’t a precise Eq. Before I know it, I’ve got a rack system instead of a bass head.

I feel like I complicating things. As a kid, i used to plug my bass into a Peavey refrigerator and away I went. 25 years later I’m running NASA to play country rock to festivals. all I want is a clean no treble Bass sound.

The last few gigs have bummed me out. I have a ton of amps and speakers and cannot get a loud clean signal. I’d rather not use my Kemper live.

My thoughts are:
1) buy another 500w head when they are available again and run 2 heads and 2 sets of cabs live (the heads are back ordered).

2) use my Sans Amp, compressor and rack eq as preamps and use the stereo power amp to fuel the cabs

3) use the Kemper and the power amp and cabs

4) throw it all out and build a different simpler bass rig that I can still manage to carry

any insights are helpful. Sorry for the rambling. In the studio I am a ninja. In the live world I seem L-o-S-t.

If you're a Ninja in the studio, you got my respect by definition

If you're open to sell somethin', I'd still tell go the sansamp (and rack) way!
Tech21 2112 Geddy Lee Sansamp rack pre
Invalid Link Removed
You have two sections (like on some dbx rack comp) first one is a proper Sansamp (but with custom tweaked frequencies accordin' to The Man Himself) second one is just called "saturation", givin' you the warm, tight punch of tube emulation at your likings

I really think you'll find viable to have this in your behringer with no further hassles... please feel absolutely free to lemme know

Cheers,
Wallace

 

[brithedark]

If you're a Ninja in the studio, you got my respect by definition

If you're open to sell somethin', I'd still tell go the sansamp (and rack) way!
Tech21 2112 Geddy Lee Sansamp rack pre
Invalid Link Removed
You have two sections (like on some dbx rack comp) first one is a proper Sansamp (but with custom tweaked frequencies accordin' to The Man Himself) second one is just called "saturation", givin' you the warm, tight punch of tube emulation at your likings

I really think you'll find viable to have this in your behringer with no further hassles... please feel absolutely free to lemme know

Cheers,
Wallace

I looked at the Geddy. Still an option for sure. Not for tomorrow’s gig. But in the future. I was looking at that and LeBass.

 

[jbd5015]

I'd send you in two directions.

1. Ultralight 2x12 like the Aguilar SL212, Barefaced, Fearless(greenboy), etc etc. The SL212 is great because of how narrow the cab design is. Its approximately shoulder width, which makes it easy to fit through doorways etc. Even my band members are shocked when they move it. Its a guitar player approved bass cab. It is a bit heavier than your suggest 30lb, but i feel the ergonomics may make it all right. A collapsable dolly would also reduce the amount of time spent carrying the unit.

2. Powered monitor. It may not be the most aesthetically pleasing unit, but they are coming a LONG way recently. Lightweight, gobs of power, and typically a 2 or even 3-way design. This would cost less than any of the cabs I listed. If you are into using the preamp stuff, this is a reasonable suggestion.

 

[BurningSkies]

I'd send you in two directions.

1. Ultralight 2x12 like the Aguilar SL212, Barefaced, Fearless(greenboy), etc etc. The SL212 is great because of how narrow the cab design is. Its approximately shoulder width, which makes it easy to fit through doorways etc. Even my band members are shocked when they move it. Its a guitar player approved bass cab. It is a bit heavier than your suggest 30lb, but i feel the ergonomics may make it all right. A collapsable dolly would also reduce the amount of time spent carrying the unit.

2. Powered monitor. It may not be the most aesthetically pleasing unit, but they are coming a LONG way recently. Lightweight, gobs of power, and typically a 2 or even 3-way design. This would cost less than any of the cabs I listed. If you are into using the preamp stuff, this is a reasonable suggestion.

I'd agree. With the limitations involved, I'd be working as modularly as possible. That means multiple lighter cabs and a good amount of power to drive 'em. I've been using a fEarful rig for years, but with 15's and one of my cabs is about 35lbs, the other closer to 45. So, the 12's would net you smaller/lighter heft. Then it amounts to an extra load-trip to carry them due health concerns.

We live in a new age of lighter cabs so a couple/three of the above mentioned cabs (I'd go with 112's for size/weight portability) then a superlight high power amplifier that is capable of 2ohms (either power amp and your pre, or a compact class D head that can do 2ohms).

I honestly can't imagine 'big stages' or festivals without some PA support and monitors...don't be afraid to use that. Worse comes to worse...look into IEMS.

 

[brithedark]

Thanks guys for all the ideas. I will re read and mentalize (?) all the ideas.

For what it’s worth, I Used a multimeter on my Elf 4 ohm 2x10 feed from the BQ500. Banging on a low E... I got an average reading of about 18 (200AC scale) with the amp wide open. That’s roughly 81W. (18x18)/4

Is that not the way to do it? If that’s right, then yikes my BQ500 is a BQ100.

 

[agedhorse]

Thanks guys for all the ideas. I will re read and mentalize (?) all the ideas.

For what it’s worth, I Used a multimeter on my Elf 4 ohm 2x10 feed from the BQ500. Banging on a low E... I got an average reading of about 18 (200AC scale) with the amp wide open. That’s roughly 81W. (18x18)/4

Is that not the way to do it? If that’s right, then yikes my BQ500 is a BQ100.

No, depending on the meter it might give an average but it's likely to be just a series of randomish samples.

 

[Anemic_SluG]

Just a thought, a 800 watt 2 ohm capable amp, let’s say a Mesa D800. You can get flashier and more features but a simple awesome sounding amp with power that fit the bill is that one. Secondly you can get any high end 8ohm speaker, for example a Mesa Subway 15. Now for the modular part you can get 2 total 15’s and a 12, or 2 15’s and a 210 cab. Or any combination.

The other option is the Bergantino forte line of amps and 3 12” Hdn cabinets.

Mesa 15” weight 37 lbs the berg 112 weighs 28.

The only way I have found to cover a large stage with high end lightweight gear is in the 800 watt range with 2-3 cabinets.

Good luck on your search

 

[Djadja]

I’m a lifelong engineer who’s played session bass for 30+ years. I’m looking for insight into simplifying/improving my live setup.

The story...I have a rare neuro-muscle disease and use mostly instruments I have made to suit my condition. I like clean bass with no boink. Mostly fretless. I don’t mind some grit, and I NEED my optical compressor bc I play a strange thumb style and it’s my blanket lol.

I haven’t played live that much since the 90s. But I’ve been dipping toes back into it. My gear has to be very light and modular. Many of our shows are on bigger stages and outdoors.

I have some pedals (Sans Amp and TC Forcefield), a BQ 500 head, 2 Elf 1x10s(each is 8ohms), a homemade 1x12 4ohm eminence delta12LF, and a 2x12 with Celestion Pulse speakers (4ohm total). I also have a Behringer NX3000 amp which CAN drive 2ohms. I use a Kemper toaster in the studio. Never taken it live.

I really thought 500w into the 2 Elf 1x10 or my 2x12 would cover most shows. But we’ve been doing bigger stages, festivals, outdoors, and bass many times isn’t getting much or any PA help. I’m farting speakers out when I hit Fs and the BQ Is jacked.

So I need to run a bigger setup. My BQ500 can only do 4ohms. So I either need 2 heads (an extra to power the 4ohm 1x12), Or I can bypass the BQ, and use the Behringer power amp. That could power Any combination of speakers.

But the power amp requires a preamp, which my Sans Amp VT driver does ok, not great... and it’s noisy as hell. Add in my compressor, and it gets worse. and then I need a decent rack Eq then bc the sans amp isn’t a precise Eq. Before I know it, I’ve got a rack system instead of a bass head.

I feel like I complicating things. As a kid, i used to plug my bass into a Peavey refrigerator and away I went. 25 years later I’m running NASA to play country rock to festivals. all I want is a clean no treble Bass sound.

The last few gigs have bummed me out. I have a ton of amps and speakers and cannot get a loud clean signal. I’d rather not use my Kemper live.

My thoughts are:
1) buy another 500w head when they are available again and run 2 heads and 2 sets of cabs live (the heads are back ordered).

2) use my Sans Amp, compressor and rack eq as preamps and use the stereo power amp to fuel the cabs

3) use the Kemper and the power amp and cabs

4) throw it all out and build a different simpler bass rig that I can still manage to carry

any insights are helpful. Sorry for the rambling. In the studio I am a ninja. In the live world I seem L-o-S-t.

You’ve got a lot of gear... that is not meeting your needs.

As I read through it, #4 really does seem to be the smartest course. But you don’t have to bite the entire bullet at once. You head is 500 watts into 4 ohms correct? I also assume you like it, correct? I would get either a pair of good 8 ohm 112 cabs or a pair of good 8 ohm 210 cabs. 500 watts through either pair of cabs ought to get loud enough without being too difficult to schlep and you have scalability. If you don’t need two cabs, bring just one. If you get good cabs and find that your 500 watt head isn’t cutting it, then upgrade to a higher power head and they should still be fine.

High end cabs will not be cheap but that is the only way you’ll get what you want/need. You’ve already seen what happens when you try to piece meal something together. I’d look at Genzler, Barefaced, Greenboy, Audiokinesis, Mesa, and Bergantino. Each have their own strengths and weaknesses and each has its own voice.

 

[GmanJeff]

Um, I'd ditch the rig entirely and go with IEMs. I do that and my rig is my Pedaltrain Metro 16 plus the IEM transmitter/receiver. All the mixing boards are digital now so I can control my mix with my phone over the network. You're probably used to playing through headphones so it wouldn't be that big a change. One of the best parts is that my load in/out time is about five minutes flat, with no wear and tear on my body.

This, absolutely, if weight and logistics are concerns.

If you feel you must have a amp and cab, consider selling all your collection of odds and ends and buy what will really work for you, a more powerful but compact and lightweight amp and a single cab you can manage. A Revsound RS112 weighs 25 lbs and is highly efficient. The RS 210 weighs 30 lbs. Two of either should be plenty loud for most rational purposes.

 

[Chad Michael]

….higher powered...

Power does amazing things when used with caution.... several times (bass rig and p.a.) I have had the opportunity to run adequate power, then swap in excess power. With excess power (again used intelligently and cautiously) it makes the sound JUMP out of a speaker. It doesn't just make sound, it makes sound with authority. One would have to experience this first - hand to understand...

BTW - one horsepower is equivalent to 746 watts... pay close attention to agedhorsepower and Wasnex

 

[unbridled]

Ever consider Genzler 12-3s? Great cabs that are just over 30#.

I have MS and have broken my back and neck multiple times, so I need to keep things light. I did the same thing as you and tried many different combinations of amps and cabs. Like you, I figured that if the components were light, multiple trips were fine. Also, Roadies are great, but aren't there when you get home.

I finally bit the bullet and bought a lightly used Genzler rig. MG800 (like, 8#), and 2, 12-3 cabs (32#). They've covered everything I've done, including festivals. If there comes a point that the rig isn't enough, I need to reconsider my vocation, or add another 12-3. The head will handle the load.

The MG800 is awesome, but you do have to mess with it if you like your tone colored a specific way, which you can do with the contour control. Without using the contour, it's very transparent.

 

[agedhorse]

Power does amazing things when used with caution.... several times (bass rig and p.a.) I have had the opportunity to run adequate power, then swap in excess power. With excess power (again used intelligently and cautiously) it makes the sound JUMP out of a speaker. It doesn't just make sound, it makes sound with authority. One would have to experience this first - hand to understand...

BTW - one horsepower is equivalent to 746 watts... pay close attention to agedhorsepower and Wasnex

It also does amazing destructive things to speakers without reasonable expectations, good judgement and common sense.

 

[Chad Michael]

It also does amazing destructive things to speakers without reasonable expectations, good judgement and common sense.

Yes. Reasonable expectations, good judgement, and common sense are not popular these days...

 

[brithedark]

Thanks all for these thoughtful replies! I can’t thank you enough.

 

[BAG]

I missed the fact that you have a Kemper.
Why not just get a good full range powered speaker and use the Kemper? You could most likely get away with using a good FOH PA powered speaker. There's plenty of light and very powerful options out there and if one isn't enough just add a second one.

 

[MrLenny1]

2 Fearless 1x12's. ... You're welcome.

 

[Sid Fang]

Thanks all so far for thoughts. Keep em coning.
...I can make cabs if need be. But I’d rather buy something already tuned up. What are the lightest 4x10s or 2x12s out there?. Even two 2x10s if it makes things easier to carry.

If you look a the ratio of sensitivity and power handling to weight, 4x10s are not going to be your best bet. As others have mentioned, with the past couple of generations of Eminence (and other) Neo 12" drivers, 212s are a very nice platform for light-weight loud, clean, bass. Two of them stacked will move a LOT of air. But even the lightweight ones tend to be above 30lbs (my EBS 212s are 46lbs each). You can find Neo 112 cabinets under 30lbs, but stacking 4 of them will generally neither be quite as loud nor go quite as low as a pair of 212s, as most 112s make cabinet design trade-offs that favor small size over frequency response or sensitivity, but in your particular case it might be a win. If you explore this path, do pay attention to impedance and cabling. Aguilar cabs are quite good, and they have a 30lb 112 cabinet with good specs - but you can't chain-link the speakon cables, which would make it really hard to use 4 (or even 2) of them with a single amp.