Double Bass Studying Upright Bass in College

[May Cassidy]

I'm primarily an electric bass player with some experience playing upright bass in school based groups, and I'm wondering what to do for college. The school I'm primarily looking at only takes upright, so I would either have to really get moving on my upright chops or audition on guitar, but who would do such a horrid thing? I certainly love playing upright bass, but I don't have the same knowledge/ technical facility as I do on electric bass. I'm wondering if I can get some information about y'all's experience with renting vs buying, transportation of the upright, types of bass construction (laminate, etc.), and just whether I should pursue upright bass or find a school that allows me to audition on electric bass. Any kind of knowledge will be immensely helpful.

 

[Lee Moses]

It was decades ago, but I auditioned on electric bass at a school that didn't offer electric bass as a principal instrument. Schools that have a big jazz focus would obviously be more favorable to that than classical conservatories.

 

[Wasnex]

Studying upright will broaden your experience and open doors (so you have more choices for employment). But only you can decide the best path to take.

I was in a similar circumstance when I went to college. The year before I enrolled, they had two tracks, but had decided to only continue the classical track. AFAIK the track they shut down was commercial rather than specifically jazz.

I had come up playing in school orchestras and also done well in All-City All-Region orchestras, and the local Youth Symphony. I was usually 1st chair. I dropped out of the school programs after 10th grade. I had hoped to continue in the Youth Symphony but my high school instructor was vindictive and pointed out a frequently ignored clause in the Youth Symphony's charter. Members must participate in their schools orchestra. I wound up playing bass guitar in a local university big band, even though I did not read chord changes.

I wasn't particularly interested in pursuing the classical track, but went ahead with it because it seemed like the only viable option. The school did still have some improv classes, but I never took them. I learned enough with classical theory to find my way. I bought a Real Book and one of the guitar instructors mentored me once a week on how to read and interpret chord changes.

Due to life circumstances, I never completed the program. I dropped out after 3rd semester, and joined the military as an electronics tech. I kept practicing reading changes in the Real Book, and played in a cover band at my first assignment.

There was a military band at my second assignment. I bought a really crappy Kay upright and worked my technique back up. I auditioned on both bass guitar and upright. They said I wasn't really qualified, but offered me a job as they had a lot of bass vacancies across the program at that time. (For context, I think my ability to read changes had significantly improved since I had left school.)

I worked hard and was extremely successful in the military band program. I played in big bands, concert bands, jazz trios, cover bands, etc. I also lived in and toured Europe. I feel my skills on upright bass greatly contributed to my success.

 

[turf3]

First thing I'd do is get in contact with a qualified upright teacher, and have a lesson/assessment. "Am I even remotely ready to audition on this thing?" I suspect that if your upright experience is using your electric experience to play in the school jazz band, the answer will be "no". I would expect that to audition for a university on DB you're going to have bowing skills and classical skills comparable to a very good high school orchestral bassist.

Questions about buying/renting, construction, transporting, are all so premature as to be irrelevant at this point.

You also need to contact the music department at the school in question and ask various questions like "If I audition on guitar and am accepted, what's involved in changing primary instruments part way through once I develop upright chops?". It would also depend, I assume, on the track within the music department. A classical performance degree is going to be much more focused on the specific instrument than a music therapy or elementary music ed degree.

 

[Don Hergert]

whether I should pursue upright bass or find a school that allows me to audition on electric bass.

So, if it's either guitar or double bass and you'd really prefer electric bass in college, it sounds like it's worth exploring what your motivations are for taking your music focus to college in the first place. What are your goals in college, and perhaps more importantly, after college? I'd suggest that if you're targeting music because you have some experience in it, and perhaps would have an advantage in college because of that, you might be looking at music, and potentially even looking at college, for the wrong reason.

My first college experience was wasted, I had no direction and I really didn't want to study, and I'll always feel guilty about the wasted money and wasted energy involved with getting me into college. At that time in my life, I really just wanted to play music. I quit in my Junior year with a mediocre college record, and then worked a dismal assortment of hard -- not music related -- jobs for about 10 years. By that time I finally had real career direction, although not in music, and went back to school. I aced that college career. I still loved and still love music, but I over that time I had learned that for me, music just wasn't going to provide stable lifelong income; I could still enjoy it, but just not as a career.

If you can do it, the best reason to focus on a particular skill set in college is because you want to make a career of that skill set. So then you have to ask yourself if you really want to compete professionally in the market with that skill set, full time, year after year and decade after decade, in order to earn a living to support yourself and potentially a family.

For a lot of people, the thought of that would take all the fun out of music, but if it doesn't for you, maybe you're on the right track...

If you do go into music at college, be prepared to also learn to perform with piano, voice, other instruments, potentially also putting a lot of time into orchestral performance, theatrical performance, etc., etc. In other words, the specific direction that currently you personally want to take your music may not be the same direction that your professors will steer you. It will definitely be mind-expanding, but it may also be tedious and uninteresting for you at times, and your specific music focus will probably change while you're in college...

If your love for music can grow and flourish in these situations, then you're probably going in the right direction. My suggestion is just that it's worth while to think it over very realistically, and very carefully.

Best of luck to you as you make your future!

 

[james condino]

Take a few classes in a subject that might actually lead to employment after, rather than being another new fish lost in the crowd of 75,000 people trying to get one of the three paid positions every year for $127 a season.

I know I'm a bit biased, but I also cannot recommend enough trying out for one of the positions in the various US military bands. I have two friends currently in them and their experience went from being constantly broke and struggling to making a very good wage, being part of a very good band that performs constantly, and having your college aspirations and tuition paid for by the military while traveling the world having full benefits and a retirement plan.

 

[Adam Booker]

As a professor, I sympathize with you so much. Here at my institution, I often get electric players that have to start upright, but they are invariably going into our music industry program. Because of that, much slack is given as their future career goals have little to nothing to do with symphony work. I even lobbied for and started offering applied lessons for credit on electric. Shoot me a message. I'd love to talk about your goals!

 

[ClusterFlux]

I'm primarily an electric bass player with some experience playing upright bass in school based groups, and I'm wondering what to do for college. The school I'm primarily looking at only takes upright, so I would either have to really get moving on my upright chops or audition on guitar, but who would do such a horrid thing?

If you are going into your junior year, then you might as well start learning DB now. Rent a bass for a few months, start taking lessons, and if it works out, buy a plywood bass and a good bow.

If you're going into your senior year, then it seems like you've got two choices. One, take a gap year and spend as much time as possible on DB and whatever else you might need. Two, go to another school where you can audition on EB, and try to transfer into the school of your choice after 1-2 years. Maybe go to a state school to save on tuition.

transportation of the upright

It will come with a soft case. Get a Bass Buggy. You can fit a DB into almost any car, you can see how on YouTube.

types of bass construction (laminate, etc.)

Plywood. Affordable, more robust. If you stick with DB and actually start making a career out of it, you'll know when it's time to get something better.

whether I should pursue upright bass or find a school that allows me to audition on electric bass.

While you may want to defer to some Real Pros™ on the following... You'll have more opportunities if you can play DB.

What is not clear is whether those are opportunities you want -- not that you will have much choice. The pandemic slaughtered many of the already-dwindling ways to earn a living as a musician. As such, playing DB may not be required just for school, but to earn a living as a bassist when you get out.

 

[May Cassidy]

Thank you all so much! Very speedy replies which is greatly appreciated. I'll need a bit of time before I make any definitive decisions but I thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

I switched to upright my sophomore year of college. I studied ethnomusicology so it didn't really matter what instrument I was playing (most of my classes were very liberal arts focused) I wanted to play upright because I was interested in jazz and folk music. I felt very behind the other bassists and never made the top ensembles but I had a lot of deficiencies compared to the average music student. I really got it together in my 20s when I was living in NYC. If you're already a good reader who has strong musical fundamentals I think you could probably catch up pretty admirably, particularly with all the practice time and instruction you will receive!

That being said, if you don't particularly like the DB and don't aspire to play one at a professional level (and are excited about putting in the work) I think the guitar track wouldn't be the worst thing. I don't buy the "real bassists MUST play upright" idea. You will always have plenty of opportunities as a good BG player, and building strong doubling skills as a guitarist will certainly be helpful as a professional musician. Fretted instruments and violin family instruments can share a role in ensembles but are very different technique-wise. I'd think very hard about where you'd like to develop, and where your heart and energy are.

One last piece of unsolicited advice - try and take as many recording / tech / computer-based music classes you can. Also building piano chops so you can play / program synth bass is huge. Compared to when I graduated 15 years ago it has become a massive part of the industry, and most of the people I know who do best professionally have these skills on top of being a good instrumentalist. Good luck on your journey, I am so happy talented young people like yourself are still choosing music!

 

[BassFalcon]

While it's hard to hear, Electric Bass is not a "legit" instrument. Berklee is about the only place now you can seriously academically study Electric Bass used to be Musicians Institute and the Player's School too but I think they are both defunct now. That's just what it is. Not saying it's right or wrong, that's just how it is. There is not a historic repertoire for electric bass, no one composed for electric bass, etc. etc. it's not taken seriously as an instrument in academic music. You need to decide if academic music is for you. Maybe you go for something else, get a good paying job, buy beautiful expensive basses, and play your heart out on your free time. That's no less a worthy goal than academic music, it's also the route I eventually went. There is no right or wrong, only what you want, you just need to figure that out. Academic music is a tough pursuit, your best bets are to keep going and become a professor or get good enough to get into a good professional orchestra, but the kids you'll be competing with for that, some have been preparing for it since they could walk. Whatever your choice, best of luck, and be sure to always keep music in your life if that's what you love.

 

[May Cassidy]

If you don't particularly like the DB and don't aspire to play one at a professional level (and are excited about putting in the work) I think the guitar track wouldn't be the worst thing. I don't buy the "real bassists MUST play upright" idea. You will always have plenty of opportunities as a good BG player, and building strong doubling skills as a guitarist will certainly be helpful as a professional musician.

Yeah my snide little jab at playing guitar was meant to be jokey lol. I'm definitely not against doing that and I love playing guitar as it was what I started on before quickly transitioning to bass. I mostly just feel like I'm losing something by not pursuing a bass instrument in college, but I guess there's nothing really stopping me from playing bass period.

 

[May Cassidy]

While it's hard to hear, Electric Bass is not a "legit" instrument.

Yeah that's certainly something I've noticed in my search for music schools. I'm young so of course I'm liable to scoff at sentiments like that but it does make sense that music schools, most of which have focus in Jazz or Classical, don't really have much to offer for this newcomer (even though the Fender Precision just recently celebrated it's 70th birthday).

 

[Ric Vice]

Yeah my snide little jab at playing guitar was meant to be jokey lol. I'm definitely not against doing that and I love playing guitar as it was what I started on before quickly transitioning to bass. I mostly just feel like I'm losing something by not pursuing a bass instrument in college, but I guess there's nothing really stopping me from playing bass period.

When I entered college there wasn't even a Jazz studies program at Ball State University. I began taking legitimate bass lessons my Junior year of high school. I had played DB since Junior High. Nothing could replace the value I gained studying DB for 6 years. At this point you'll probably have to do your bass studies as a extra curricular activity, but their are so many incredible online courses with very reputable teachers that once you have the basics you can avail yourself of. If you are self motivated the sky is virtually the limit once you have the basics down. Just my take of course.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

While it's hard to hear, Electric Bass is not a "legit" instrument. Berklee is about the only place now you can seriously academically study Electric Bass used to be Musicians Institute and the Player's School too but I think they are both defunct now. That's just what it is. Not saying it's right or wrong, that's just how it is. There is not a historic repertoire for electric bass, no one composed for electric bass, etc. etc. it's not taken seriously as an instrument in academic music. You need to decide if academic music is for you. Maybe you go for something else, get a good paying job, buy beautiful expensive basses, and play your heart out on your free time. That's no less a worthy goal than academic music, it's also the route I eventually went. There is no right or wrong, only what you want, you just need to figure that out. Academic music is a tough pursuit, your best bets are to keep going and become a professor or get good enough to get into a good professional orchestra, but the kids you'll be competing with for that, some have been preparing for it since they could walk. Whatever your choice, best of luck, and be sure to always keep music in your life if that's what you love.

I don't know about this. There is a lot of career outcomes for musicians between professor/orchestral musician and hobbyist. If that was the case, why do jazz and studio music programs exist? Lots people get real serious about DB in college and get to the highest level (and he already plays it a bit) so let's not try to scare this student away based on an assumption that he is going be outclassed by child prodigies for his entire life. As far as BG not being taken seriously every professional musician I know works with BG players in some context or another, although I agree there is much less pedagogy for the instrument. That gap is pretty effectively closed by guitar pedagogy so they make you choose a track, which is kind of the crux of the question.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

As a professor, I sympathize with you so much. Here at my institution, I often get electric players that have to start upright, but they are invariably going into our music industry program. Because of that, much slack is given as their future career goals have little to nothing to do with symphony work. I even lobbied for and started offering applied lessons for credit on electric. Shoot me a message. I'd love to talk about your goals!

Another professor here, same basic story. It is not uncommon to have students audition on electric and then transition to become doubling players. The key is whether they can function in ensembles on electric while they transition. I have also had two amazing Brazilian adult grad students who auditioned into the program and completed their studies playing only electric. But they were pros when they entered, and their ensembles wanted for nothing with them in the bass chair.

I currently have two undergraduates who entered as primarily electric players. Both are talented and passionate students who are very musical. One transitioned into an excellent upright player and is now a strong doubler. The other may do so if he chooses, but he is a strong electric player and it's his choice. But the advice from others in this thread about increased opportunities by being a doubler is spot on, IMO. For better or worse, some ensembles/band leaders just won't consider a bassist who only plays electric. So it's a question worth considering.

 

[BassFalcon]

I don't know about this. There is a lot of career outcomes for musicians between professor/orchestral musician and hobbyist. If that was the case, why do jazz and studio music programs exist? Lots people get real serious about DB in college and get to the highest level (and he already plays it a bit) so let's not try to scare this student away based on an assumption that he is going be outclassed by child prodigies for his entire life. As far as BG not being taken seriously every professional musician I know works with BG players in some context or another, although I agree there is much less pedagogy for the instrument. That gap is pretty effectively closed by guitar pedagogy so they make you choose a track, which is kind of the crux of the question.

I don't disagree with you that there are other career outcomes for an academic musician besides professor and Orchestra section player, but how many of those alternatives offer a retirement plan or health care plan or any of the other benefits of a "legit" job that most people are looking for? Are there any Jazz gigs that do? Maybe a few. Studio gigs that do? I think I may have not communicated my thoughts effectively. Regarding "being outclassed by child prodigies" what I meant by that, was in my own experience I came to double bass as a junior in high school as well. I got good enough fast enough to earn a scholarship to play in college. It's possible for sure, but for me, one of the struggles I had was that I didn't get to listening to classical music until my junior year of high school when I picked up double bass. Some of the bassists I played with in college had parents that listened to classical music. Classical music was their native musical language. Classical music repertoire, 4 part harmony, all that academic music stuff was their native musical language. My dad was listening to BB King. I was listening to Alice In Chains. Mahler and Mozart were foreign to me. Because I started it so late, it was a foreign language to me, it gave those other bassists who grew up with it a big leg up on me and I had to work incredibly hard to keep up. I'm not trying to scare anyone away from following their dream, I just want to share my experience, which is similar to what OP is proposing, and the difficulties I faced he may not have considered. It's gonna be a lot of catch-up to learn the repertoire and the vernacular etc. it's not insurmountable but it's gonna be a slog.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Berklee is about the only place now you can seriously academically study Electric Bass used to be Musicians Institute and the Player's School too but I think they are both defunct now.

This is not accurate, there are any number of schools that accept bass guitar as primary instrument:
Manhattan School of Music
New School Jazz and Contemporary Music Program (Mannes)
Herb Alpert School of Music at CalArts
Frost Music School at University of Miami
And that's just off the top of my head, there are both colleges and universities that are not strictly conservatories or music schools that have music programs that accept bass guitar.

 

[Don Kasper]

Musicians Institute and the Player's School too but I think they are both defunct now.

Musician's Institute (Hollywood, CA), is still in "business".
FYI.

 

[Adam Booker]

I believe you can add Shenandoah Conservatory to the list of places you can major on E Bass. Donovan Stoles is a great teacher, too.