Double Bass Studying Upright Bass in College

[Wasnex]

Question for wasnex: When did the army quit the tuba requirement for bandsman? That was one of the reasons I didn't seriously consider the army band after auditioning. I could play some tuba but the thought of being stuck in post band somewhere playing tuba made my elitist self say "No, thanks".

I was not aware this had changed.

I believe the Navy also had a general expectation that players doubled on tuba and bass guitar. So the Army was not all that unusual.

The Air Force was the outlier, as they expected players to double on upright and bass guitar. Those who do not double on upright don't tend to go as far as those who do.

AF band field bands are generally broken down into two parts. One side includes one or two full-time cover bands. The players on this side of the house typically also play jazz trio and various solo engagements.

The other side of the house is built around the personnel required to field a concert band. The concert band breaks down into various smaller ensembles that typically includes big band, woodwind quintet, brass quintets, possibly a part time cover band or other specialty group, and jazz trio. Vocals, guitar, keyboard, and trumpet also tend to do solo background or ceremonial jobs. Bassist on this side of the house are expected to play upright bass at a high level in both classical and jazz styles, and to double on bass guitar as needed.

Most AF tuba players are pure legit and do not double on bass guitar or upright. They play primarily in concert band, brass quintet, and maybe Dixie band if the unit has one.

In my experience, the AF typically had higher quality musicians on average than the other services. There were very few members who did not possess at least a Bachelors. Many had completed graduate level work.

The Army and Navy had some super talented players, but they also had many players who were not really professional level IMHO. I believe there were multiple types of bands that had different quality standards. AFAIK these different levels had different quality standards.

The AF has two types of bands. There are two premier bands and they have different promotion authority and somewhat higher quality standards. People who are hired into one of the premiere bands usually stay there for the rest of their career.

The rest of the AF bands are called field bands. There are plenty of players in the field bands with enough skill to be in one of the premiere bands, but overall quality is a bit lower.

There are currently two small (named) bands that are no longer technically independent units. One of them is essentially a geographically separated detachment of a field band. The other is attached to a Major Command rather than belonging to parent band. Personal in these smaller bands are still considered part of the field band program. So they are expected to have the same skills and quality expectations.

 

[Adam Booker]

I was not aware this had changed.

I believe the Navy also had a general expectation that players doubled on tuba and bass guitar. So the Army was not all that unusual.

The Air Force was the outlier, as they expected players to double on upright and bass guitar. Those who do not double on upright don't tend to go as far as those who do.

AF band field bands are generally broken down into two parts. One side includes one or two full-time cover bands. The players on this side of the house typically also play jazz trio and various solo engagements.

The other side of the house is built around the personnel required to field a concert band. The concert band breaks down into various smaller ensembles that typically includes big band, woodwind quintet, brass quintets, possibly a part time cover band or other specialty group, and jazz trio. Vocals, guitar, keyboard, and trumpet also tend to do solo background or ceremonial jobs. Bassist on this side of the house are expected to play upright bass at a high level in both classical and jazz styles, and to double on bass guitar as needed.

Most AF tuba players are pure legit and do not double on bass guitar or upright. They play primarily in concert band, brass quintet, and maybe Dixie band if the unit has one.

In my experience, the AF typically had higher quality musicians on average than the other services. There were very few members who did not possess at least a Bachelors. Many had completed graduate level work.

The Army and Navy had some super talented players, but they also had many players who were not really professional level IMHO. I believe there were multiple types of bands that had different quality standards. AFAIK these different levels had different quality standards.

The AF has two types of bands. There are two premier bands and they have different promotion authority and somewhat higher quality standards. People who are hired into one of the premiere bands usually stay there for the rest of their career.

The rest of the AF bands are called field bands. There are plenty of players in the field bands with enough skill to be in one of the premiere bands, but overall quality is a bit lower.

There are currently two small (named) bands that are no longer technically independent units. One of them is essentially a geographically separated detachment of a field band. The other is attached to a Major Command rather than belonging to parent band. Personal in these smaller bands are still considered part of the field band program. So they are expected to have the same skills and quality expectations.

The Navy did away with the tuba doubling requirement in the late 1990's, shortly before I enlisted IIRC.

These days the military bands have become far more selective than in the past. Musicians with MM's are becoming more the rule than the exception across all service branches. There are even quite a few DMA's in the enlisted ranks. 65k student loan forgiveness, coupled with steady pay and benefits, have made the military bands a great option for musicians fresh out of college.

 

[Wasnex]

The Navy did away with the tuba doubling requirement in the late 1990's, shortly before I enlisted IIRC.

These days the military bands have become far more selective than in the past. Musicians with MM's are becoming more the rule than the exception across all service branches. There are even quite a few DMA's in the enlisted ranks. 65k student loan forgiveness, coupled with steady pay and benefits, have made the military bands a great option for musicians fresh out of college.

When I first joined the band program, it seemed like there was more variation in skill level, both above and below the average. This was good for me, because I was definitely below the average when I first started.

Over the course of my career, I would say the average quality of players increased, as we had fewer really weak players. But my perception is we also had fewer super talented players.

This caused some degree of problems with hiring. The commanders wanted to hold out for truly outstanding musicians. There are thousands upon thousands of people graduating from music programs every year, and there are far too few good jobs for all of these people. So the commanders seemed to think they would have the pick out of a large pool of outstanding musicians. But not many players at the desired level were interested in military bands.

This can lead to chronic long-term vacancies, which tend to be bad for an organization that serves as its own support staff. Not enough players to cover musical parts, and not enough administrator to do all of the work necessary to keep the band equipped and performing.

Part of the problem is an advanced degree is no guarantee that a person is a good performer. We auditioned lots of people with great credentials, who were relatively weak players with little sense of artistry or musicianship. Beyond that, if you happen to find a stellar musician who is interested, there is no guarantee that they are a good fit for the military. In many cases, they are not.

 

[Wasnex]

AFAIK the AF still has an expectation for bassist to play proficiently on upright (classical and jazz) and bass guitar. If you are a really great BG, player you may get a job without doubling on upright, but you will generally be expected to develop the necessary proficiency. Not everybody does and you may be able to hide out in the cover bands. But it tends to limit career progression.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Back in the olden days when I auditioned at Ft. Sheridan a military band was pretty much thought of as an alternative to the draft. I'm sure it has a greater attraction now, although none of the young players I know who enlisted in the last several years has stayed in more than a few years. The advantages are real, but like a lot of musical situations I believe the person has to be psychologically as well as technically suited to it.

 

[Don Hergert]

I've been able to be in the audience for a few USA military bluegrass bands... I believe the US Army and US Navy have such bluegrass bands today, I don't know about the US Air Force. Those that I've heard were tight and made up of strong talented players, pretty impressive even compared with the best civilian bluegrass bands, and of course they include double bassists...

I had heard, way back when, that military band musicians had to go through the same basic training routine as regular soldiers. Is that still the case today?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

It might also be useful to search how many military bases still have band units, a lot have been cut.

 

[Wasnex]

I've been able to be in the audience for a few USA military bluegrass bands... I believe the US Army and US Navy have such bluegrass bands today, I don't know about the US Air Force. Those that I've heard were tight and made up of strong talented players, pretty impressive even compared with the best civilian bluegrass bands, and of course they include double bassists...

I had heard, way back when, that military band musicians had to go through the same basic training routine as regular soldiers. Is that still the case today?

It was true of the AF when I left. I would be surprised if the requirement is ever eliminated, at least at the field band level. AF Bandsman are full-fledged Airman and are supposed to serve as examples of Air Force excellence. So they really need to look and act the part.

Basic training is sort of a combination of indoctrination and orientation. The idea is to break you down and then build you back up in image of an Airman. It teaches you a lot of little details about the Air Force and also shapes your belief structure and motivation processes to some degree. The indoctrination is ongoing for the duration of your career with the goal of growing the perfect Airman. Much of it is aspirational. AFAIK another primary purpose is to eliminate recruits who are not a good fit.

Bandsman go straight from basic to their units. Most Airman go to a tech school, which sort of extends to process at a lower intensity. I was originally an electronics tech and went to a 6-month tech school. I found it more difficult to get through the tech-school environment than basic. You expect BS and games at basic and the duration is rather short.

For the record, I deployed to Middle-East to entertain troops. In order to prepare, I did lot of military specific training. Weapons qualifications, cultural awareness training, convoy training, and believe it or not, they even taught us combat tactics and how to run a fire team. If you don't know, a fireteam is a small combat unit. We used weapons loaded with dummy rounds to simulate combat. We also were taught how to go through a village and breach rooms while under fire. During some of the village exercises, our weapons were loaded with paint ball rounds and the instructor shot at us from concealed locations in the village.

I did not use any combat skills on the deployment, but the idea was to be properly trained just in case we were attacked and found ourselves in a difficult situation outside the wire.

 

[mtto]

I'm looking to get a degree in music. I primarily want to study composition, but my teachers are asking me to consider education.

I have my bachelors (University of California, Santa Barbara, 1997) and masters (Cal State University, Long Beach, 2022) in composition. In the gap decades between degrees, I mostly worked writing library music for movie trailers.

There is much, much more money in composition than there is in performance. This is because composers create intellectual property. Performers in the musicians union that make recordings for soundtracks can make money, too, but there are far fewer jobs.

The caveat is you have to compose music that a market wants or needs. My motivation for getting the masters was personal (a nice thing to do for myself after a divorce) and artistic. The only job I can get now with a masters that I couldn't get before is an adjunct teaching gig at a community college or state university, which is nice for a side gig, but not a living.

To work as a composer you need some keyboard chops, mastery of harmony, notation, orchestration, as well as skills sequencing in a DAW (digital audio workstation). What you don't need is a college degree, although many composers get these skills in college. A very common path for young media composers these days is to go to Berklee or USC, then get an internship in LA.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I have my bachelors (University of California, Santa Barbara, 1997) and masters (Cal State University, Long Beach, 2022) in composition. In the gap decades between degrees, I mostly worked writing library music for movie trailers.

There is much, much more money in composition than there is in performance. This is because composers create intellectual property. Performers in the musicians union that make recordings for soundtracks can make money, too, but there are far fewer jobs.

The caveat is you have to compose music that a market wants or needs. My motivation for getting the masters was personal (a nice thing to do for myself after a divorce) and artistic. The only job I can get now with a masters that I couldn't get before is an adjunct teaching gig at a community college or state university, which is nice for a side gig, but not a living.

To work as a composer you need some keyboard chops, mastery of harmony, notation, orchestration, as well as skills sequencing in a DAW (digital audio workstation). What you don't need is a college degree, although many composers get these skills in college. A very common path for young media composers these days is to go to Berklee or USC, then get an internship in LA.

One of my jobs for several years was as a contractor and bassist for a music production company that composed music for radio, TV and film. This was probably the most stressful job I've ever had. I think the main reason was that the clients could in many cases be the most difficult people I have ever met or dealt with. Some were great, creative and clear in their vision and expectations, others were idiots who wanted us to do their jobs for them or would try to tell us how to do ours. Everyone seemed to be under pressure which was more than many could handle. My job often was as more of a therapist for our staff or the client than as a musician. Playing and being part of the creative process could be fun and fulfilling, the rest not so much. The pay was great but ultimately not worth it to me. In my experience this is another of those situations where you need the proper mental makeup as well as the musical and creative ability.

 

[BassFalcon]

It was true of the AF when I left. I would be surprised if the requirement is ever eliminated, at least at the field band level. AF Bandsman are full-fledged Airman and are supposed to serve as examples of Air Force excellence. So they really need to look and act the part.

Basic training is sort of a combination of indoctrination and orientation. The idea is to break you down and then build you back up in image of an Airman. It teaches you a lot of little details about the Air Force and also shapes your belief structure and motivation processes to some degree. The indoctrination is ongoing for the duration of your career with the goal of growing the perfect Airman. Much of it is aspirational. AFAIK another primary purpose is to eliminate recruits who are not a good fit.

Bandsman go straight from basic to their units. Most Airman go to a tech school, which sort of extends to process at a lower intensity. I was originally an electronics tech and went to a 6-month tech school. I found it more difficult to get through the tech-school environment than basic. You expect BS and games at basic and the duration is rather short.

For the record, I deployed to Middle-East to entertain troops. In order to prepare, I did lot of military specific training. Weapons qualifications, cultural awareness training, convoy training, and believe it or not, they even taught us combat tactics and how to run a fire team. If you don't know, a fireteam is a small combat unit. We used weapons loaded with dummy rounds to simulate combat. We also were taught how to go through a village and breach rooms while under fire. During some of the village exercises, our weapons were loaded with paint ball rounds and the instructor shot at us from concealed locations in the village.

I did not use any combat skills on the deployment, but the idea was to be properly trained just in case we were attacked and found ourselves in a difficult situation outside the wire.

Semi-related but way off topic, my local jazz station WDCB had an episode back in February that was amazing about Glenn Miller and his experience during WWII. A few remaining members were interviewed, they played all sorts of clips of some of the 3,000+ gigs they played in England during the war. They played the speech he gave at his last concert in the U.S. before the band left for England where he kinda tip toed around and alluded to them going. They played some of the German language propaganda and music Glenn recorded for radio broadcast. The remaining members recounted how they had no idea what going to war zone meant, and their first night there the hotel they were supposed to be at got bombed, but their bus had to stop for fuel or something like that and they were late and barely missed getting bombed themselves. It was very interesting and man that band was hot.

 

[groooooove]

I'm primarily an electric bass player with some experience playing upright bass in school based groups, and I'm wondering what to do for college. The school I'm primarily looking at only takes upright, so I would either have to really get moving on my upright chops or audition on guitar, but who would do such a horrid thing? I certainly love playing upright bass, but I don't have the same knowledge/ technical facility as I do on electric bass. I'm wondering if I can get some information about y'all's experience with renting vs buying, transportation of the upright, types of bass construction (laminate, etc.), and just whether I should pursue upright bass or find a school that allows me to audition on electric bass. Any kind of knowledge will be immensely helpful.

i was once in your *exact* position.

i was fairly proficient on electric bass. could perform all sorts of virtuoso stuff. my reading was trash. i could swing standards fairly well at the time.

I owned an upright at the time but basically couldn't play anything on it.

It's hard, since all of our career paths are different for me to try and compare my 18 year old self to you.

BUT..

i wince at the thought of not having studied upright in college. it opened up so much more opportunity, and just made me such a better musician. it also led to my now day job, teaching orchestra at an awesome public school. it's a beautiful instrument and having formal study you'll likely fall in love with it the way I did.

remember that going into the music field professionally is daunting. the level of talent, especially where i live, willing to take a $100 gig is really astounding. now imagine living a real adult life, mortgage, cars, groceries, every day stuff. you need a lot of good gigs to live a normal life, and playing upright really well is a huge ticket to double (triple if you can play jazz and classical) your potential to work.

I also very much enjoyed the variety of one day doing classical work, the next electric gig playing pop, jazz on upright, and so on...

as far as an instrument, i highly suggest to anyone in your position to purchase a nicely set up laminate. shen 80 or 100 is a great choice. hybrid shen or similar are good basses as well. I still regularly use my shen 80 i started college with, it's a reliable-as-hell bass that genuinely sounds nice, it's just not very loud. That will make a great jazz or backup bass later in life if you were to graduate to something fancier.

again, we all have our own path. take advice from those that have been there before but be sure to question everything. "is this guy whre i want to be at his age?" if yes, listen (and still consider that you and them are two different people.) lotta goofballs who have not been through music school seem to have opinions about it these days.. just beware of the goofballs and enjoy the ride.

 

[CharlieDN]

So, if it's either guitar or double bass and you'd really prefer electric bass in college, it sounds like it's worth exploring what your motivations are for taking your music focus to college in the first place. What are your goals in college, and perhaps more importantly, after college? I'd suggest that if you're targeting music because you have some experience in it, and perhaps would have an advantage in college because of that, you might be looking at music, and potentially even looking at college, for the wrong reason.

My first college experience was wasted, I had no direction and I really didn't want to study, and I'll always feel guilty about the wasted money and wasted energy involved with getting me into college. I wanted to be a human rights activist and improve our society, but I liked music more so I couldn't concentrate on my studies. After I dropped out of college I helped the human trafficking prevention program https://www.fightmatrix.com/2021/05/23/how-human-trafficking-can-be-prevented/ But I didn't have enough time to do it this activity professionally I was a volunteer in the project. A few years later, I still returned to college to get a law degree and provide qualified assistance to victims of human trafficking.

At that time in my life, I really just wanted to play music. I quit in my Junior year with a mediocre college record, and then worked a dismal assortment of hard -- not music related -- jobs for about 10 years. By that time I finally had real career direction, although not in music, and went back to school. I aced that college career. I still loved and still love music, but I over that time I had learned that for me, music just wasn't going to provide stable lifelong income; I could still enjoy it, but just not as a career.

If you can do it, the best reason to focus on a particular skill set in college is because you want to make a career of that skill set. So then you have to ask yourself if you really want to compete professionally in the market with that skill set, full time, year after year and decade after decade, in order to earn a living to support yourself and potentially a family.

For a lot of people, the thought of that would take all the fun out of music, but if it doesn't for you, maybe you're on the right track...

If you do go into music at college, be prepared to also learn to perform with piano, voice, other instruments, potentially also putting a lot of time into orchestral performance, theatrical performance, etc., etc. In other words, the specific direction that currently you personally want to take your music may not be the same direction that your professors will steer you. It will definitely be mind-expanding, but it may also be tedious and uninteresting for you at times, and your specific music focus will probably change while you're in college...

If your love for music can grow and flourish in these situations, then you're probably going in the right direction. My suggestion is just that it's worth while to think it over very realistically, and very carefully.

Best of luck to you as you make your future!

You very rightly said that in college you need to understand why you are studying and what you want to achieve in the future. I also, when I entered college, could not understand why I was doing this. I can't say that I'm sorry, I made new friends and I did music. But if I chose the right specialty, I would be more interested in studying.

 

[May Cassidy]

I just wanted to offer a general update to this thread so no one goes on wondering what happened to me.

I auditioned for a few colleges in my state, and ended up doing so on voice which went very well. The college I'll be attending in the fall will have the opportunity for me to have double bass as a secondary instrument while I major in Music Education. I'll also have plenty of opportunities to look into other areas of interest, conducting, composition, musical theater, etc.

My life is very tumultuous right now, it doesn't seem like anything is truly set in stone, but thank you all for offering your insight and experience. It's all been so very valuable.

 

[uprightbass.com]

Best wishes to you and make the most of it. My time in music school was something that I cherished, though not enough at the time. I spent too much time thinking about the future, my career, and fears of not making it and not being good enough. It doesn't matter because all of that will sort itself out. Just live in the moment and enjoy every day because before you know it it'll be graduation day and it's all over. Four years may seem long in your youth, but it's a blink of an eye.

 

[Don Hergert]

I just wanted to offer a general update to this thread so no one goes on wondering what happened to me. ...

Thank you for filling us in, glad to hear your plans are taking shape. While we may have offered a multitude of differing opinions in this thread (which is pretty normal for just about any online subject-targeted forum), I'm sure that we all wish you the very best.

Go forward and conquer!

 

[kinopah]

Congrats that's awesome!
I went to Boston College for a dual degree in Music (Composition) and Elementary Education. I NEVER wanted to be a music teacher, which is everyone's first question lol. I went in only playing electric and piano, and transitioned to upright during freshman year. What was great is the only auditioning I had to do was for the jazz and improvisation classes. The program was small enough that by the time I was a junior all the comp classes were a handful of friends (or independent study w Boston-based composers). Really miss those days!

Hope you have a great experience and the tumult of your life chills out for you!