Sub-Sonic Lows..... Help!!!

[blindrabbit]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on this site as I was referred by a local music store when they weren't able to answer my question.

I apologize if this has been answered many times before.

Here's the deal. I want a pedal/rack unit/amp that is not an octave effect, but activates the 30-60hz range.

Basically I want my tone to be unaltered, yet when the effect is engaged, it will kick in that sub-sonic EQ (I want bass that you can feel, not hear).

I got my hands on a Meatbox with the hopes that this would do what I needed. It had the right idea, but it immediately lost its tracking and had a synth-y tone to it (which I now understand is its purpose).

All I want (which I now am finding out is harder said than done) is the ability to EQ that sub-sonic EQ.

What lead me on this journey is we had a keyboard player in the band and she was able to generate that extreme low end. She split with the band and now our live shows don't have the low end that we are used to so I am looking for a solution.

In summary I have tried the Meatbox, Mantic Density Hulk, SansAmp Bass Driver DI.

What I haven't tried is the DBX 120 Rackmount unit however I heard that because this is an analog unit, it will still have trouble tracking the low notes.

Any direction that I could get would be much appreciated as I cannot be the only bass player who has ever had this issue.

Thanks!

If you aren't generating frequencies that low, there won't be anything to boost or manage, and all you will get is rumble and mud. So step one is to generate some low frequencies if/when you want them, and for this, you'll need some sort of octave effect. If you don't like the tracking of analog octavers (no shame there, there are many people that don't, especially in the lower registers), then you'll need a digital octaver - namely, the EHX NanoPOG/MicroPOG/POG/Pitchfork, or a Bass Whammy, etc. With one of these in place, you'll generate that octave below perfectly and cleanly. Now, whether or not you'll like the synthy tone you get is another matter altogether, but you could choose to dial in only a little bit if you like.

Another way of thinking about this is whether or not you actually want to *eliminate* those subsonic frequencies, and thus make your amp/PA work more efficiently. A number of users around here who have tried HPFs that eliminate everything below 30 or 40Hz or so find that the punch and slam of their signal is actually far better.

If I were you, I'd start out with trying something from the POG family and see if that gets you the effect you are looking for, and go from there.

Good luck!

 

[FunkHead]

My only advice is to find bands/songs that are getting exactly what you want without Keys. Then dissect the Bass players Rig. It's about the Bass/Speakers/Eq settings/Pedals.....The entire package. For example: A 3015LF is going to carry the low notes much better than regular 3015. Most of the notes you will ever hit below Low E are still audible however, their volume diminishes. So Concentrate on bands that do a lot of B string work. Godsmack, Korn, Creed, Breaking Benjamin, Etc.... A good bass rig can produce the Low B loudly without the use of a Pedal. I also think better pickups such as Bartolinis' can get you half way there as they have a very unique tone.

 

[Dan Bass]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on this site as I was referred by a local music store when they weren't able to answer my question.

I apologize if this has been answered many times before.

Here's the deal. I want a pedal/rack unit/amp that is not an octave effect, but activates the 30-60hz range.

Basically I want my tone to be unaltered, yet when the effect is engaged, it will kick in that sub-sonic EQ (I want bass that you can feel, not hear).

I got my hands on a Meatbox with the hopes that this would do what I needed. It had the right idea, but it immediately lost its tracking and had a synth-y tone to it (which I now understand is its purpose).

All I want (which I now am finding out is harder said than done) is the ability to EQ that sub-sonic EQ.

What lead me on this journey is we had a keyboard player in the band and she was able to generate that extreme low end. She split with the band and now our live shows don't have the low end that we are used to so I am looking for a solution.

In summary I have tried the Meatbox, Mantic Density Hulk, SansAmp Bass Driver DI.

What I haven't tried is the DBX 120 Rackmount unit however I heard that because this is an analog unit, it will still have trouble tracking the low notes.

Any direction that I could get would be much appreciated as I cannot be the only bass player who has ever had this issue.

Thanks!

How about getting a 2/3 way crossover that has sub hookups, you could be jamming and the hit the sub button and boom! Super low sub sound and get a Behringer UltraBass Pro Digital Subharmonic processor EX1200 or Aural Exciter with big bottom, also a graphic EQ with down to 30hz band on it.

 

[ofajen]

Also, not really an effect, but it's easy for me to get a sound rich in ultra-lows on either of my passive basses: the Ripper and the SX P-bass. The Ripper was designed by Bill Lawrence with a Q-filter midrange cut and I added one to the P. Dialing down the mids leaves the lows more prominent. The loss of mid and low mid energy requires a bit of make up gain. Not really a switchable effect, but a simple tone option.

Turns out to be harder on my import Sterling with the active 3-band eq, because I think it actually peaks around 60 Hz and rolls off below that. Great for a big fat tone, but it doesn't do the ultra low thing without specialized eq from my Super Tone Control.

Otto

 

[aprod]

The DOD Meatbox is what you need.

 

[morgansterne]

the bbe bmax pre has a foot switchable sonic maximizer effect. You can create some really deep sounds with it, I owned one for a couple of years.

 

[monsterthompson]

I'd have some concerns about the speaker cabs health and life, depending on how much volume is getting pushed. I'm guessing clean headroom is not a concern in this application. Even if the PA can handle it, the bass cabs could get beaten up.

I'd also consider how much overdrive/fuzz/distortion is going on. Compression is a byproduct of those and could potentially impact the ability to hit the frequencies you want.

 

[Ric5]

add a powered sub

Invalid Link Removed

 

[40Hz]

With kindness I say the only thing this works well for is divesting you of $100.

Not really. But it's a subtle bit of processing the BBE does. It's more along the lines of a clarity enhancer than anything else - although some people hear it differently.

But you're right in thinking what it won't do is give you a thunderous low boost. It makes your bottom end seem... I dunno...wider(?) to my ears. But everyone seems to hear what the BBE (or its cousin from Aphex) does slightly differently. And a few don't hear it do much of anything at all.

FWIW, I think the BBE has more of a place in the recording studio (where sonic subtly is the rule partially because the studio is where it's actually doable) than it is on the stage. But that's me. YMMV.

 

[Mugre]

There's no probe you can stick up a donkey's backside that will make it run as fast as a quarterhorse.

 

[squirefan]

This is a pet peeve of mine: You're describingh INFRAsonics, not SUBsonics. Infra and hyper are prefixes that dictate frequency, where as sub and super are prefixes that dictate speed.

You spelled describing incorrectly!

 

[FilterFunk]

Not sure how much help this will be; I'm a home studio guy and I don't know what types of venues you play, but I'll give it a shot:

I wanted something with clear, transparent sound to use as a monitor for my multi-track recorder. Monitors and amps all seem to have their own tonal range and color (not to mention price range!), so I found this:

It's a Kustom PA PA50 Personal PA System which I got new for about $80 on sale. Powerful for its size, and VERY clear and transparent, but not enough lows. Fortunately, it has a very convenient Subwoofer Out jack in the back:

I thought about getting the Kustom subwoofer, but it runs about $200, which is more than what I wanted to pay for a simple bedroom setup, so I searched eBay for subwoofers and found this:

It's a Yamaha YST-SW015 Subwoofer. I decided to go for it because it has a ton of very positive reviews. It's used, discontinued, and not the sexiest-looking bit of kit, but it works perfectly. The tone is focused and doesn't get muddy, and it only set me back about $45! I didn't even have to pay shipping because it was a local sale.


Sorry for being so long-winded, but I thought a little illustration and explanation might help. So, in a nutshell: A good amp with a subwoofer out jack, and a good subwoofer (you can decide how much you want to spend and how much power you need for both) just might be the ticket.


EDIT: Just read post #14 - in your case, it seems the Mantic Density Brute Boost might be all you need if you're only playing venues with PA systems that can handle the lows.

 

[silky smoove]

You spelled describing incorrectly!

I spelled it correctly, but my clumsy fingers on an iPhone keyboard are greedy when it comes to adding letters. You might say they're hyperactive... Or infraactive... Sub? I'm lost at this point.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I think what you are looking for is something that thumps you in the chest. Is that right?

If so, the very low frequencies you are talking about are not the ones that do that. The low-mids are the ones that give you that thump. I'd suggest the first thing you do is get away from your amp to listen how it sounds as you normally EQ it AT LEAST 20-feet away. It takes 20 to 30-feet for some of those low bass frequencies to blossom. Now, while you are playing the same pattern you just did for the 20-foot test, have your buddy boost up the 250 hz range on your amp. These are the low mids and you will feel and hear the change.

If you don't have a semi-parametric EQ that can grab that frequency, just boost the knob that says low mids. Some amps will have a switch that changes the center of that low-mid between 250hz. and 500hz. You want the 250hz. So try this out and see if that gives you the thump you are looking for. If not, then continue your search for an add on that will do it. But ALWAYS make your sonic decisions at distance from your speakers as what you hear next to the amp is much different than what you hear 20 to 30-feet away (audience distance).

Also, just so you know, the low end (bass knob on most amps) and the lowest end notes also suck up HUGE amounts of power and you'll often find yourself running out of headroom at lower volumes than you like to play. Lots of high-quality amps (not all) have a high pass filter to stop from sending out any frequency below about 30 hz just because we start to get into the inaudible range of frequencies and it takes so much power to replicate them for no audible benefit. The low B on a 5 string is 30.8hz and through most cabs you aren't getting much of that note but you are getting enough of the harmonic to recognize it. Remember what I mentioned about distance to blossom? A 20hz sound takes almost 20-meters to get the whole sound (sound wave at 20hz is almost 20 meters long!), so if the room you are playing isn't at least 60-feet deep, you're not going to get the full sound out of it.

Since it costs you nothing, give those low mids a try before you buy anything. If that doesn't do it, then go ahead and continue your search.

 

[monsterthompson]

20-30ft thing is false. If it was true, you wouldn't hear those frequencies in headphones.

 

[silky smoove]

20-30ft thing is false. If it was true, you wouldn't hear those frequencies in headphones.

Correct.

Anything in the audible spectrum can be heard at any point along its wavelength, not just beyond the point at which it completes its cycle.

 

[Pat C.]

Couple of things:

The nature of the signal from your bass is likely very different than the signal from your former keyboard player. If you pluck an open E string and compare that to a sine wave played by a keyboard on E1 (41Hz) they are going to sound completely different, and my guess is the keyboard is going to stomp all over the bass signal, even at the same db level. Even a complex synth/keyboard sound is going to have a very different fundamental vs. harmonics profile than your bass, and the more fundamental that is present the more you will feel and experience the bass of the signal.

Like it or not our basses are limited in their ability to put out those fundamentals by the bass geometry (scale length, etc.), construction (type of woods, body/neck construction, bridge, nut, etc.) and electronics configuration (pickup type/position, pre-amp/EQ, etc). Playing style will factor in as well. I'd bet if your grinding away with a pick on the E string of a jazz bass with the bridge pickup solo'd then there probably isn't a whole lot of the fundamental in the signal. EQ can help, but you can't add what isn't there, only reinforce the existing signal.

I'd bet that many of the suggestions so fair will help with boosting up your low end, but nothing will totally replace the sound of the keys that you are now missing. Might be easier just to pick up a new keyboard player?

 

[ofajen]

Room dimensions dictate modal behavior which will emphsize some frequencies and reduce others at each point in a room, but room response will be smooth below the lowest mode. It's not the case that there is no response below that point. Indeed, in smaller spaces there will be room gain (you are essentially pressurizing the room). Car interiors are a profound case but the effect exists in bigger rooms. Below the onset pitch which is lower for larger rooms, room response increases at 12 dB/octave.

Also, response below the lowest fundamental can still have an audible effect. Bear in mind that a bass is not a sine wave generator and will have pulse like components in note attacks at lower pitches which will sound different (and take a lot more energy) if the low end response is strong.

Otto

 

[Fieldly41]

Thank you so much for all of your responses!

I ended up picking up a MeatBox and playing with it for a few hours and it was exactly what I needed.

Thanks again to everyone who responded!