Sub woofer question - Hybrid PA

[tothemax]

We are a 6-piece blues rock group (2 guitars, keys, bass, drums, & percussionist with vocals). I recently joined this band and I like the people and the groove (the drummer and I go way back). They are looking to do some smaller events without hiring a sound system (save some bucks). The drummer has a pair of 18" powered speakers (1200w) and would like to add them to my existing PA and feels that we would still need a powered sub-woofer, hence the hybrid system (passive/powered). Gigs would be for crowds of 50 to maybe 100, pavilion and tented outdoor events.

I have a small passive PA system that I have used for small gigs over the years. It's a Behringer X2222 mixer with an older Yamaha EMX660 powered mixer as a power amp (run the XLR main outs from the mixer into two channels on the Yamaha). I run a pair of Yamaha 15" cabs (BR15) for the house, and 2 or 4 12" wedges for stage monitors (I normally only mic the vocals and some drums). It's always been sufficient for my needs and the monitor mix was the same as the house mix.

The Behringer mixer has two pairs of main outs (XLR and 1/4" TRS) so I'm thinking with the correct cables it could work. Another thing might be to consider a custom monitor mix from one using an the Aux channel. I'm in my 60's and not looking to upgrade my PA at this stage, but I'm fine with being a team player if we can make something work with my PA. I'm open for any feedback, particularly regarding the sub-woofer and how it would be used (not something I'm familiar with).

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Are the 18's the drummer has powered sub woofers?
What model speaker are those.

Yes you could add powered sub woofers to your system.
Couple things you would need to do would be have some form of a crossover
to high pass your main speakers in the 100hz area.
Some powered subs have a crossover built in with a high pass output to drive the mains.
You could / should look at a true power amp to run the system.
The Crown XLS series are light weight and have a basic built in DSP that can be set up to do the crossover functions.

 

[DonaldR]

As @Mike Caldwell said, I think it's a good idea to swap your powered Yamaha mixer for a dedicated power amp, if you don't use this mixer for other purposes. It would be lighter, more convenient and the Crown is a good recommendation for the builtin crossover, bridge mode, Y-input mode, etc.
Question: how do you power your 2-4 wedge monitors?

 

[drpepper]

mixer has two pairs of main outs (XLR and 1/4" TRS) so I'm thinking with the correct cables it could work

I'm a "sound interested/curious" band member, not a sound professional as you might have gotten previous responses from, so I can't really comment on the advisability of replacing the EMX660 with a proper power amp and I don't claim knowledge of every piece of gear out there, but within the framework that you already have going, a powered subwoofer could essentially go in-line between the X2222 and EMX660. I'm not aware of any available powered subwoofer that doesn't include a crossover...there could be, but I think you'd have to put in some effort trying to find one, so assuming that a powered sub you're getting will have a crossover isn't a stretch.

You'd go from an XLR main out on the X2222 to a full range in on the sub and then high passed out of the sub to the EMX660. I suppose a material difference from what you're doing now would be that, running a single line, your monitors would be getting the same cutoff as the mains. With vocals only, I wouldn't think that'd be any kind of problem of making them sound too thin...you'd have to find out. There's no reason to use both main outs on the X2222. Even if everything wasn't mono, it's all going down to one output from the EMX660.

If you want full-range to the monitors, a solution would be to run one main out of the X2222 through the sub and one main out (or a monitor mix from an aux channel) directly to a second channel on the EMX660 and only sending that channel to the monitor out.

As above, I'd question what 18" speakers the drummer has because even though we've established that I don't know everything that's out there, the only 18" speakers I've heard of are subs.

And lastly, I'd question what the perceived need for change involving a sub is. Are you going to be running everything through the PA? If the drummer has powered mains, why wouldn't you just use those instead of your passive speakers? You'd still need a way to run the monitors, but the mains themselves seem to make most sense to me as an either-or situation (but that's just me).

BTW if you're successfully running 4 monitors with the EMX660, I guess there's some combination of luck and the actual capability of each side of the amp to run at 2 ohms, because it looks like it's supposed to support 2 monitors.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

All powered subs have a internal crossover for their operation, what they have for an output can vary either a straight pass through or high pass, some are selectable.

The powered mixer needs to go at least for the mains, maybe you can still use it as a monitor amp and get you two mixes of monitors and split the load up between to the two channels.

Your band would have a fair demand on the PA even if not doing a full mix.
As a rule band members seem to under estimate what they need for a PA!
Cranking up the stage volume does not make up for lack of PA and a true mix.

With your mixer and system do you have even a basic graphic EQ to use for some main PA EQ?

 

[tothemax]

I really appreciate the thoughtful responses and information. I actually have a Crown XLi 1500 in the rack in my studio, I pair it with the Yamaha 12" 2 way monitors that came with the EMX660 when we purchased it new. Works great as an extension to my DAW monitors or a PA for small practices.

I think I get away with running the 4 12" monitors daisy chained to the second channel outputs on the 660 because 1 pair are the original Yamaha's and second set are inexpensive Gemini 2-way wedges (you know the ones rated at 10K watts ). The other reason would be that the 660 is old amp technology and basically a beast.

Back to the current question:

Yes the drummers speakers are powered, they are actually 15" (Alto TS415 - 2,500w) - my bad. He was referring to an Alto 18" (TS18S) as a sub recommendation. Looking at the specs, it appears to have some type of a crossover. The connections are 2 combo 1/4"/XLR inputs with 2 XLR thru connections. 3 EQ settings and phase alignment selector (would need to research that).

Alto Professional TS18S 18-inch Powered Subwoofer

As I mentioned I've only been playing with this band for a few months and these gigs wouldn't be until late spring early summer. From the comments above in the short term we could use the hybrid system. Y'all are dead on with the way the drummer wants to set this up. Use the powered speakers for FOH and the passive system for monitors. As fir EQ, the 660 unit has a master EQ that seems to work pretty well. I guess the powered speakers would be dependent on the X2222 mixer EQ.

I guess my only question would be how much of a difference will having the sub make to the FOH sound. I'm old school, let the stage amps do their job, let the PA handle the vocals and peripherals (sax, harp, percussion). This drummer is one of the rare low key drummers and benefits from having a few mic's in the PA. The Behringer mixer only supports 8 XLR channels and 4 line level inputs. It works fine for me in the studio, though I've been looking hard at the Zoom LiveTrak 20, but still on the fence (but that's another discussion).

Down the road:

As mentioned, the X2222 has worked well for me in the studio and for live gigs, the preamps seem to be a little better than the 660's for vocals and the board layout make it easier to manage than the front mount EMX660. As a power amp the 660 is built like a tank and is portable, and I own one. If this band works out maybe I'll look for a Crown 2500 amp and find a road case for it and set the mixer on top. Let the other guys figure out the subwoofer.

Thanks again for the helpful feedback...

 

[drpepper]

...the 660 is old amp technology and basically a beast.

...are actually 15" (Alto TS415 - 2,500w)...Alto 18" (TS18S) as a sub recommendation.

Those are made to work together, so you don't need to worry much about it. Those would run off of the main outs on the X2222. If you want to keep using the passive monitors, send a monitor mix from the X2222 to the EMX660. You're done.

I guess my only question would be how much of a difference will having the sub make to the FOH sound

How meaningful that difference is would depend on what you have in the PA, how loud you're playing and would then still be very much a subjective matter.

For what you describe, especially if you're primarily running vocals in the PA and otherwise unamplified instruments are just incidental and you're playing at (what I consider to be) an appropriate event accompaniment level for gatherings of 50-100, my opinion would be that there would be little to no point in adding a sub. If it was my wallet being opened, it wouldn't.

Still talking about reasonable and civilized levels but running more instruments through the PA, I think a sub is a good addition to give a rich and balanced sound out front while allowing you run amps at a lower level...improving the environment on stage.

 

[Catfish Sound]

Yes the drummers speakers are powered, they are actually 15" (Alto TS415 - 2,500w) - my bad. He was referring to an Alto 18" (TS18S) as a sub recommendation. Looking at the specs, it appears to have some type of a crossover. The connections are 2 combo 1/4"/XLR inputs with 2 XLR thru connections. 3 EQ settings and phase alignment selector (would need to research that).

Alto Professional TS18S 18-inch Powered Subwoofer

As I mentioned I've only been playing with this band for a few months and these gigs wouldn't be until late spring early summer. From the comments above in the short term we could use the hybrid system. Y'all are dead on with the way the drummer wants to set this up. Use the powered speakers for FOH and the passive system for monitors. As fir EQ, the 660 unit has a master EQ that seems to work pretty well. I guess the powered speakers would be dependent on the X2222 mixer EQ.

I guess my only question would be how much of a difference will having the sub make to the FOH sound. I'm old school, let the stage amps do their job, let the PA handle the vocals and peripherals (sax, harp, percussion). This drummer is one of the rare low key drummers and benefits from having a few mic's in the PA. The Behringer mixer only supports 8 XLR channels and 4 line level inputs. It works fine for me in the studio, though I've been looking hard at the Zoom LiveTrak 20, but still on the fence (but that's another discussion).

Not a fan of having a set rolloff at 100hz with no option to tweak if you ever went to 12" mains (actually better for vocals) but those 15's in the powered mains will carry a lot of weight, depending on the venue. If yer' old school like I am you remember when 15's in those old JBL and Altec bins more than held their own at many a concert.
As for the TS415's it appears they have a custom EQ setting option via the app that might prove useful in getting the most out of them.

 

[Short4since64]

THAT'S NOT A SUB! THIS IS A SUB!

Those are 15" car competition speakers, very inefficient but the F3 point was 27Hz. 2 of these driven with a Crest 9001 operating on 220 volts in an EDM night club (4 KW). Also served as the low end of the house PA on live music night, but alas, I digress... On the subject: personally would not give a nickel for any of the Alto stuff. Don't like companies who lie. 2500 watts? Line cord with 2 parallel prongs is rated max 15A Derate to 80% per National Electrical Code. That's 12A x 120V = 1440 watts x 90% (theoretical max class D efficiency) =1296 watts, the MAX any amplifier using a standard cord and plug can have.
For audiences of 100 outdoors, we would only use our Yorkville 15/horn cabs on sticks, mix on stage, that's vox, acoustic, minimally mic'd lead guitar and drums thru the PA. Bass holds it's own (see avatar). If you plan to do larger, putting the kick and bass guitar strongly thru the PA, a sub would be a good addition, only need one, something worthwhile like a QSC. Powered subs all have at minimum a low pass inbuilt, btw a quality 15" sub will outperform two cheap 18" and won't require as much space to move. We own a pair of 18s, but they're only for large outdoor gigs (or renting out the PA) where the subs can go side by side under the front of the stage.

 

[tothemax]

Good info... we would be mic'ing the kick and and overheads on the drums, plus the drummer has a digital module (used on certain songs). The percussionist's congas are also mic'd (plus three vocal mics).

I think my position will be to focus on a decent monitor and room sound - either hybrid or passive and let the band decide on the sub. My stand mounted passive two-way Yamaha 15" set has done the job for many a show using the Behringer mixer and EMX660 amp (plus we could use the extra channels on the 660 is needed to add a mic). As "the" new guy, being a team player and saying less have always been qualities I respected as a BL (so I'll try to follow my own advice ).

All said, the newer powered class D gear is much lighter than my passive gear. But like the EMX660, my older Yamaha gear seems to have been constructed for heavy use and still sounds great. My back knows it too well...

Cheers!

 

[Short4since64]

Good info... we would be mic'ing the kick and and overheads on the drums, plus the drummer has a digital module (used on certain songs). The percussionist's congas are also mic'd (plus three vocal mics).

I think my position will be to focus on a decent monitor and room sound - either hybrid or passive and let the band decide on the sub. My stand mounted passive two-way Yamaha 15" set has done the job for many a show using the Behringer mixer and EMX660 amp (plus we could use the extra channels on the 660 is needed to add a mic). As "the" new guy, being a team player and saying less have always been qualities I respected as a BL (so I'll try to follow my own advice ).

All said, the newer powered class D gear is much lighter than my passive gear. But like the EMX660, my older Yamaha gear seems to have been constructed for heavy use and still sounds great. My back knows it too well...

Cheers!

Our monitors are passive, 10" and horn. Work out well because of the amp - a Rane MA6 has 6 independent channels, 150W into 4ohms per channel so the monitor levels can be set independently for each wedge (4) and the sidefills (2)