Subtle or over the top?

[JimmyM]

I'm trying to pinpoint the exact moment I lost interest in this thread. Can't quite figure it out...was it when Seacouch said we should assume traditional roles in the music we play? Or was it when the argument made its way to a third page?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I'm trying to pinpoint the exact moment I lost interest in this thread. Can't quite figure it out...was it when Seacouch said we should assume traditional roles in the music we play? Or was it when the argument made its way to a third page?

Don't try to pinpoint it. It sounds like its a series of events.

 

[Mark Olson]

Never fear, it looks to be over. Thank god, I can only humor people for so long until I go into jerk mode, which I think is the only reason anyone followed any of this to the small degree they actually did, I guess they wanted another show, huh?

Needless to say some people on here can convince me in a single post they have no clue what they're talking about. Some people take three pages of long winded BS to remove all doubt. Hahahaha!

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Needless to say some people on here can convince me in a single post they have no clue what they're talking about.

How true....

 

[seacouch]

I wouldn't expect you would. But don't gloss over what I've wrote before you try to pigeonhole my ideas as the nearest thing you're familiar with that you've spent what little time you have considering and then call the role of devil's advocate. I'm the one playing devil's advocate against the more common and traditional lines of thinking as to the possible (and effective) roles of the electric bass guitar.

Should we argue over who's playing devil's advocate?

I'm not you so many years ago, clearly. I could tell you I'm 62 years old, would that change the validity of any of my ideas one bit? No not at all, and age makes a poor argument to try to combat ideas about music. Clearly, no young musicians have ever made any impact on the world of music, had commercial or artistic success, or what have you, yes?

You're really very sensitive about this, aren't you. Sorry I touched a sore spot.

But what I can tell you is that I've used my personal approach to the bass guitar on thousands of songs during countless performances in every musical situation I've been able to get myself into and it's "worked", and the "average listener" found it not so "snore-inducing".

I think that's fantastic!

Yes, the credit you've just given to the "average listener" is appallingly naive. Clearly John Entwistle's approach to the bass guitar was very "snore-inducing". And Jack Bruce in Cream? Only bass players ever dug Cream and The Who, right? They've never enjoyed artistic or commercial success with a wide audience?

Hmmm. No, I don't think anything I said is naive in any sense. We'll just have to disagree on that point.

And even if the "average listener" is so unappreciative of anything, what says they're who we need to write our music to appease? Music has a great advantage as an art form, being arguably the most accessible to the average person. In a commercial sense, you want your music to be accessible to the most people possible, especially in the demographics that buy the most records, in order to make as much money as possible.

I don't think I placed any value judgements on what kind of music you choose to make. I stand by my statements about the average listener, but I never said that the average listener should be your target audience. You're battling a straw man, (and the chip on your shoulder is showing).

But money is just one small reason to get into music, just a tiny part of a much larger picture. What about artistic gratification? What kind of audience would you really most like to connect with? In music we have the freedom to connect with all kinds of audiences, in part because of it's inherent accessibility. As I've stated before, I've known and worked with very successful producers, and their views towards music are most certainly not so narrow as to only view the money aspect, despite what you might think because of their success. They make music for all kinds of audiences, for all kinds of reasons. You get my point.

Yes, I've gotten your point all along. My only point has been that swimming up-stream gets tiresome eventually, so try to pick your battles wisely. That's all. You seem determined to take offense at that. Whatever - knock yourself out my friend. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you do, and however you choose to do it.

 

[seacouch]

I'm trying to pinpoint the exact moment I lost interest in this thread. Can't quite figure it out...was it when Seacouch said we should assume traditional roles in the music we play? Or was it when the argument made its way to a third page?

Sheesh, no wonder you lost interest. I would too if someone said that.

 

[seacouch]

When it sounds good it works and wether something sounds good depends on physics so you guys are both right.
So you can stop agreeing with each other over and over again every post .

But we're such nice guys!

EDIT: I just wanted to add that you can play a so called "lead role" while still fulfilling the traditional role of a bassist and that is what a lot of good bassist do. For it to work tho there has to be room in the mix (unless you play metal ). Most bands that I enjoy create parts in the song where some instruments back off for a moment so you can hear what the individual instruments are doing for the mix. This both makes the mix more dynamic and points the listener to other "layers" in the music. Every instrument can play a "lead role" all at the same time as long as they work together and leave space for each other (I'm not talking about solo's here).

If you think you are progressive by putting the bass in the lead role you are in fact still thinking inside the image of particular roles that each instrument has and as such are not progressive at all. Each instrument can do whatever he wants as long as it sounds good together. For the bass this mostly means playing in the lower registers and leaving some space so that things don't turn to muddy downstairs. If you play something else and you can make it sound good than thats great and you should. That said however I mostly find most solo bassists rather meh sounding and enjoy listening to bassists in bands much more. This could of course be due to my taste but in general people don't listen to solo bassists unless they play bass themselves (I like to listen occasionally because they do inspire me by their skills and often different approach from which I can learn).

The reason a lot of bassists feel that they merely have a supporting role is because or ears are more focused on guitar frequencies and as such the lower frequencies are more difficult to destinguish and as such bassists get less credits. You can solve this by playing higher stuff in the guitar ranges (which can work really well if there is space for it). Another option is to add some punch and grit to your sound to stand out more and write some interesting basslines (my prefered optoin). A third option is to just get your groove on and not care (motown style). Lastly you can get rid of all the guitars and keyboards and play solo bass but most people don't seem to like the sound of this (at least it hasn't caught on yet ).

I like playing solos, and I've always been very good at it, if I do say so myself. But there's a bit of a "duh" element here. When you consider that the bass guitar was designed to play, well, bass - it's kind of a no-brainer. It's not a big mystery why solo bass isn't wildly popular (and never will be). I mean, we're debating whether the average listener likes the sound of an instrument being used in a way that it wasn't designed for. Yeah, you can put effects and eq on it, but at some point that amounts to turd-polishing. It's a bass. It's even got the word "bass" in the name. If pointing this out makes me the neighborhood luddite, then so be it.

Choose what you prefere as long as you make it sound good to yourself it works.

Agreed! You are your most important audience.

BTW. I like some subtle effects to sculp my sound (always on) and then some not so subtle to "rape my tone" as someone elogently put it.

I like to goof around with effects in the studio, but usually end up leaving the bass fairly dry. Live, I use eq, sometimes compressor, and lately I've been digging the xotic rc bass booster. I play a variety of music, but none of it really calls for effects.

 

[seacouch]

Never fear, it looks to be over. Thank god, I can only humor people for so long until I go into jerk mode, which I think is the only reason anyone followed any of this to the small degree they actually did, I guess they wanted another show, huh?

Needless to say some people on here can convince me in a single post they have no clue what they're talking about. Some people take three pages of long winded BS to remove all doubt. Hahahaha!

Good grief, get over yourself already. If you don't like what someone has to say, move on to the next post - it's not that difficult.

 

[icarussmicarus]

Might be a good idea for this thread to wrap up before it goes any further....

 

[Mark Olson]

Don't worry. Unless someone actually has something intelligent to say, which is beyond doubtful at this point, I'm done; I think I've made my point well enough, even if most people aren't going to get it. I blame it on the abject failure of the public school systems to teach people how to interpret, understand, and appreciate art, both now and way back when, but that's entirely another matter that I highly doubt anyone wants to discuss at any length.

So why don't we take a stab at getting back on topic? Anyone interested in doing that? Since no one else seems up to the task, allow me: how does everyone here define the difference between subtle and over the top? I'm not saying there's any overlap, in fact there's probably a large amount of possibilities between the two. But what I'm getting at is that my Fuzz Face sounds, for example, that are over the top for me, might be standard for someone else. Where specifically do you draw the lines between subtle, standard, and over the top?

 

[Jared Lash]

Might be a good idea for this thread to wrap up before it goes any further....

Well, then I better get this in first:

vs

Hmm

Stallone does play the iconic Lincoln Hawk, "When I turn my hat around it's like a switch you know" but I'll take the experimental hip-hop group.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Love that movie, especially with the arm exercise thing in the cab of the truck

 

[Nyarlathotep]

how does everyone here define the difference between subtle and over the top?

Subtle = just a little change from the basic sound going into the pedal. A chorus set to just a little depth and a long rate would be an example.

Over the top = well, exactly that. Something that is REALLY noticeable, like a deep, fast chorus.

 

[seacouch]

Love that movie, especially with the arm exercise thing in the cab of the truck

I was deeply disappointed when it got snubbed by the oscars.

 

[seacouch]

FWIW, I actually think this is an interesting topic, and would love to be able to discuss this and other topics without things getting all personal. I'm here for the fabulous conversation, not a pissing contest (www.pissingcontest.com). Can a group of bassists have semi-adult conversation? I remain optimistic!

A round of hugs for everyone!

 

[Mark Olson]

There's nothing personal about me being a jerk or thinking you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm just a jerk in general to everybody (the other members of this forum will attest to that) and forgive me if that's all your three pages of long winded drivel has convinced me of. But for what it's worth I don't think you've convinced anyone else of anything else either. Now I've humored you good naturedly for three pages, but that's the extent of my patience and compassion, so that's the score, and if you're taking it personally I'd suggest you just let it go, because I don't get any nicer from here . But rest assured you don't have to worry about my "feelings". I don an affect, sure, and I can act offended or what have you, but it's really all fake. So we'll just leave that at that.

But the point is I don't think anybody (myself included) is any longer interested in hearing any more of your half baked notions and even weaker justifications of them. I also don't think, even if they could understand them, anyone else would be wanting to hear any more of my ideas about music and expression. So why don't you just let it go?

 

[Mark Olson]

Sifting through the drivel, you actually expressed an idea! So, I'll throw out some dry rice for you pesky seagull haha .

Yes, I've gotten your point all along.

No, to me you very clearly have not. And since it seems I'm the only one who actually sees the points I'm trying to make, I'm the only one qualified to make that judgement.

My only point has been that swimming up-stream gets tiresome eventually, so try to pick your battles wisely. That's all.

Who is swimming upstream? Who is picking battles? There is no stream and there are no battles! We're talking about music, not salmon or military tactics! If you have some intelligent correlation between having the chops, cajones, and the musical and artistic savvy and inclination to use those chops to go outside of an arbitrary little safe zone of what you and apparently only you thinks a bass should stay within and "swimming upstream", I would love to hear it.

But no, I'm not swimming upstream. I'm gaining momentum going downhill. The more I play the more I develop my style, and it's because of that style that I'm increasingly more in demand for any kind of gigs I want to do, session work and live. Maybe your musical acquaintances share your arbitrarily small musical vision and scope, but I assure you everyone I work with does not.

 

[dnarock]

All I have at the moment is a Crybaby bass wah and when i step on it I want everyone to know it !!!

 

[seacouch]

No, to me you very clearly have not. And since it seems I'm the only one who actually sees the points I'm trying to make, I'm the only one qualified to make that judgement.

Ok, nice to know the rules of your game. So, your point as I understood it is that you don't believe in boundaries. Over-simplified, I know, but that's the gist, right?

And yes, after reading a few posts complaining about roles and their restrictions, I think I can claim devil's advocate status by pointing out (not very well, apparently) that some rules have some value. I know it's not rocket surgery, but drivel you say? Now you're just being a drama queen. Anyway, none of it's anything to get up in arms about (that chip must get mighty heavy).

Hugs for you too Marc. Especially for you.

 

[Mark Olson]

Yes, now even you realize the only way you can even wrap your head around what I'm putting out is via a gross oversimplification, which is also totally and utterly untrue, by the way. I assume you could see where that might deplete my patience over the course of several pages. Just stick with me for a minute...

Let me put this into terms I think you'll understand... you remember elementary school physics right? No one is talking about re-inventing the wheel. The wheel is being used as a component of a compound machine, see? And utilizing the extra components along with the wheel, one can achieve the more difficult tasks of expressing musically bigger ideas, in greater depth. A compound machine can do things the wheel can't do alone, obviously. Right?

But I can't be quoted as saying anything to the effect that "all rules have no value". I think the fact that you're upset is affecting your judgement. Just relax, ok?