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Suggestions on where to go from here?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by DeadheadSteve, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. DeadheadSteve


    Mar 14, 2019
    Hey Guys,

    I work a job with a limited income, and have paved my bass playing ways by purchasing second hand and cheap for my entire life. Still in this position, however i have managed to save up enough money to consider upgrading part of my setup. I would like to draw from the infinite wealth of opinions!

    Currently rocking - Ibanez GIO6, into board w/Envelope filter -> ebs comp -> Radial bigshot ABY to LS2 w/Keeley Red Dirt + dry, second split to a Proco Jugganaught -> old chorus, all blended with another LS2 into my Sansamp PBDDI, into a crown PowerAmp (1000w @ 2ohm), into a GKneo212 (600w 8ohm).

    Issues that i find when I'm playing is;
    - Not happy with tone. Spent hours tweaking nobs on the sansamp and working the digital EQ on the crown amp. Still not getting the "fatness" to the tone in the lows I'm seeking without overpowering the poweramp and redlining at "lower levels" to have a fatter tone.
    - Drummer still can drown me out while im red-lining the PowerAmp and competing with an AC30 and Marshal Half Stack
    - Limited to using speakon/xlr/speaker wiring only for outputs on PowerAmp
    - No matter what i set the phase to on the split, i still have a volume drop when i "blend" the A + B channel on my last LS2. Only been able to effectively set up a stereo chain with select-able channels when i wanted parallel signals

    What i cant figure out is, am i not happy because i am getting a sub-par tone that's not cutting or blending too well with the band, or is it a matter of volume?
    Should i look at getting a "real" bass amp with more outpout/tone possibilities, or buy another cab to run with the 212 to make up for the little extra oomph im missing?

    As much as i would love to pack my gear and head to a shop to try out stuff, I would feel terrible knowing I'm going in to not buy anything. Hopefully one (or more) of you beautiful people have been in the same situation and can point me in the right direction.

  2. two fingers

    two fingers Opinionated blowhard. But not mad about it. Gold Supporting Member

    Feb 7, 2005
    Eastern NC USA
    The first thing I would do is post the exact same question in the effects part of the forum. Those guys are bat turd crazy rocket surgeons and (with a little but of .... fun.... thrown in) will help anybody. They'll help you sort out the volume drop when blending issue first.
    wave rider likes this.
  3. lomo

    lomo passionate hack Supporting Member

    Apr 15, 2006
    Simplify :)
  4. Redbrangus

    Redbrangus Supporting Member

    Nov 19, 2018
    Under The X In Texas
    This was my first thought. You've got a seriously complicated signal path. Also, you didn't specify what Crown amp you're using, but 1000 watts at 2 ohms is 250 watts at 8 ohms, or 125 watts per driver; it's possible you're running out of juice. But the effects forum is the place for your signal path questions.
  5. DeadheadSteve


    Mar 14, 2019
    Thanks for the reply guys!
    It's complicated because I have a habbit of playing with alot of shoegazey type players. With the usual trio I find I sometimes need that extra bit of variety.. so I'm not bending down to play with knobs all the time and hurting my back.
    My original plan was to bi-amp like crummerford, but I could never afford a new amp and cab so I sourced what pedals I could to make a 'stereo to mono' signal path that allows me to change single aspects without affecting others.

    What I'm REALLY trying to ask, which I now realise I never made clear in all my rambles.

    Given what i have, would you recommend buying an extra cab to get more volume from my poweramp (which I'm assuming I would daisychain cabs to change to 4ohm?), or buying a real bass amplifier, or upgrading my current cab? Or any other reccomendations?
    If you guys think I'm still going the wrong way I'll move my problems elsewhere :)

  6. Redbrangus

    Redbrangus Supporting Member

    Nov 19, 2018
    Under The X In Texas
    Another matching 212 cab would certainly give you more volume as well as allowing you to take better advantage of the power that's there in your amp. Also, presuming this is a stereo amp, are you bridging the two channels? An amp that will drive a 2-ohm load per channel will drive a 4-ohm load in bridged mode.
    Dabndug likes this.
  7. DeadheadSteve


    Mar 14, 2019
    Yes it's stereo, and no, I have barely looked into bridging!
    My only knowledge of bridging is from wiring up a car sound system, and I didn't see any way to use that knowledge with my cab having a speakon input and me being too scared to open it up. I have a terrible habbit of putting things back together wrong you see..

    Is there a way to bridge using speakon cables? I saw a wiring diagram once and almost gave it a go but I didn't feel comfortable putting a self-wired cable connecting a 1k watt amp to my 600w cab!

    Attached Files:

  8. Low Class

    Low Class

    Jul 4, 2005
    Have you tried straight into the SansAmp and cutting out everything in front of it to see what your tone is like?
    Jim Carr, Nevada Pete, chadds and 6 others like this.
  9. DeadheadSteve


    Mar 14, 2019
    Why yes I have! Definitely alot 'cleaner', but I lose a little spank without the compressor and the sansamp output becomes quieter.

    I can use the sansamp to make my signal a little hotter, but then that just causes my amp to red line even faster which causes it to self-limit at -1db (what ever that means).. and then its just strait up squash and overdriven solidstate which doesnt sound pretty.
  10. Redbrangus

    Redbrangus Supporting Member

    Nov 19, 2018
    Under The X In Texas
    Yes, you can get the bridged output from the Speakons. IIRC, Crown amps have both outputs available on the channel one Speakon. Channel 1 is on pair 1 (+1 and -1) and channel 2 is on the pair 2 connections (+2 and -2) of that same connector, so a Speakon wired to +1 and +2 of that connector will have the bridged output. This would be a unique cable, so would need to be well marked as to which end goes into the amp...the good news is that if it were plugged in backwards, it just wouldn't work; there wouldn't be any harm done.

    And I'm emphatically not a pedal/effects guy, but as I look again at your signal path, I have this observation: if you're running a chorus in one of two parallel signal paths, you're guaranteed to have phase cancellations if you try to combine the two paths to a mono signal. It is the nature of the chorus effect to introduce delays and thus, when combined with an undelayed signal, there are going to be phase cancellation effects. The lower the frequency of the signal, the more pronounced the loss will be.
    Jim Carr likes this.
  11. DeadheadSteve


    Mar 14, 2019
    I noticed this too, so the second LS2 acts more as a channel switch between the A and B. Blending is just bleugh right now, but would ultimately be my goal.

    Thank you so far for all your inputs!
  12. BogeyBass

    BogeyBass Inactive

    Sep 14, 2010
    The issue really isnt the power situation.
    you have plenty of it.

    If the drummer drowns out a 2x12

    eventually a 2x12 is a 2x12

    just add another exact matching cab.

    as far as your pedals and all that. it sounds relatively straight forward
    youll lose alot if you try to boost to many lows and expect a single cab to do it.

    adding the extra cab will help, and also concentrate less on boosting to much lows
    also find midrange voice with EQ and bass playing technique.

    alot tone is in the hands. we all wanna hear deep bass. boosting 100hz and up gives a nice strong punch
    if you are boosting alot of 60, 40 or 20hz sliders. it sounds good at low levels.
    band levels it will eat your speakers up.
    DrThumpenstein likes this.
  13. lug

    lug Supporting Member

    Feb 11, 2005
    League City, Tx
    2nd cab will benefit you most at this point.
    DrThumpenstein likes this.
  14. Eddie LeBlanc

    Eddie LeBlanc

    Oct 26, 2014
    Beaumont, Texas
    Don't create no problem, won't be no problem.
    change the rig to something that is top notch.......


    B|Amp with two Schroeder cabs... three twelves. Holds its own against a guitarist with dual Mesa Lonestars with eight twelves on stage.
  15. mark286

    mark286 Proud to be a Gold Supporting Member Gold Supporting Member

    Sep 6, 2009
    Central New Jersey
    This. And, the power might even be lower than 250 watts as the input sensitivity of the Crown XTi is such that it needs 1.4 volts to drive it to its rated power. The Sansamp, as good as it is (I'm a big Sansamp fan), provides less output than that. I've only had good results using the Sansamp as a pre into power amps having 0.7 V input sensitivity like the Crest Prolites, etc.
  16. mdogs

    mdogs Supporting Member

    Apr 13, 2010
    Constant state of flux
    Nice job showing just how easily you can prove that you didn't actually read the OP.
    Microbass, quickfix, lucas303 and 2 others like this.
  17. Redbrangus

    Redbrangus Supporting Member

    Nov 19, 2018
    Under The X In Texas
    You're right that that is a potential problem with this amp, but the OP mentioned 'redlining' the amp...I presumed that meant that the red input clipping indicator was lighting up, so it sounds like he's got plenty of signal going in. (Apparently there's some gain downstream of the Sansamp.) He just needs to harness the power that's there a little better. My advice is to get a second, matching cab and operate the amp in bridged mono mode. BTW, that amp is only rated at 700 watts per channel into 2 ohms...the only way it makes 1000 watts is to bridge the two channels. But it will deliver that 1000 watts into 8-ohms; it's actually good for 1400 watts bridged at 4 ohms. Seems like a pretty good match for two of those 600-watt GK cabs.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  18. DrThumpenstein

    DrThumpenstein Living for the groove Supporting Member

    Feb 8, 2015
    St Louis, MO
    I have a GK 212 neo cab (600 w, 4-ohm MBE-II) and run it with a Mesa WD-800 and I've never had trouble keeping up with as many as 2 guitars, a beefy drummer, keys and vox through PA, and have never had to drive the amp even halfway. Another cab will make you louder, but is that going to solve your tone problem? Not so sure.

    HOWEVER: your cab is 8 ohms. With 2 of those cabs (and you DEFINITELY want a matching cab) running at 4 ohms combined, you'll definitely be a LOT louder. 4 12s push a lot of air, and your amp will deliver more power at 4 ohms than at 8. This will allow you to take better advantage of the power you currently have at your disposal. And even if you upgrade your amplifier down the road, those two 212s will cover anything less than an outdoor/festival type gig. It's nice to have the versatility of being able to use one or 2 cabs, depending on needs, although you'll probably need both cabs in your current situation.
  19. RichSnyder

    RichSnyder Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Jun 19, 2003
    You need speakers more than pedals. Your biggest gain is by purchasing a matching cab.
    DrThumpenstein likes this.
  20. SactoBass

    SactoBass A retired civil engineer who likes all-tube amps! Supporting Member

    Jul 8, 2009
    Lake Havasu City, AZ
    ^^^THIS! :thumbsup:
  21. Primary

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