Suggestions on where to go from here?

[MrLenny1]

Bypass all the pedals and work on just the bass sound & volume.
Pedals can suck every thing out of your signal.

 

[DeadheadSteve]

You have the attenuators on the Crown all the way up right?

Gonna sound stupid here - do you mean the knobs on the front or is there another pot i don't know about?

Ah... I had you figured for an XTi 1000; a 2000 is a different story. You probably don't really need to mono that, it's got 475 watts/ch into 8 ohms and 800 watts/ch into 4 ohms. If you were to mono that thing, it's rated at 2000 watts into 4 ohms.

Interesting, it sure doesn't sound like i'm pushing 475watts. I will have a good look over my unit for a model number when i get home.

does your sans amp have a signal level switch to switch between line level and instrument level? I know a couple of them do but some don’t. That might be part of the issue.

In regards to this, i believe its just parallel instrument level output with a +5db boost on one of the outputs. Would i still be able to clip my amp with a sub-par input signal?

 

[DeadheadSteve]

Bypass all the pedals and work on just the bass sound & volume.
Pedals can suck every thing out of your signal.

I will definitely start from scratch again soon. I've made sure that most (if not all) my pedals are "true bypass" but im sure putting everything through so many boxes is muddling up some tings.

 

[Balog]

Yes, the knobs on the front should be the attenuators.

 

[Nevada Pete]

I strongly suspect that Crown xti2000 of yours is not going to achieve full power when driven from your peddle board! As already mentioned by several other contributors, that particular Crown is designed to run at line level for sound reinforcement use. From a distance, it sure looks to me like your sending the Crown signals intended for the input of a bass head or other musical instrument amplifier. Ordinarily, a peddle board is not designed to drive an ultra high end power amplifier intended for sound reinforcement applications. That could be a problem:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Make sure you know what the output level of your peddle board actually is, if you insist on using all that stuff. According to Crown, you must have 1.4 volts or "Line Level" to drive the xti2000 to full power. Some Crown amplifiers have an input selector switch that would allow you to drive them to full power with lower signal levels. But not the xti2000. The xti2000 is an awesome unit. But a poor choice for your application. I suggest you either use it to power your PA system, or bite the bullet and replace it with something designed to be used to amplify an electric bass. Among many other choices, I think you would no doubt be very happy indeed with something from the MESA D800 line, like the D800+ or WD800, for example. Add another 2 X 12 and you could fill a 60' stage with a rig like that (unless your playing Viking Death Metal). Are you playing the big 60' stages?

I would not attempt to bridge your xti2000 to run your GK 2 X 12. You would be looking at over 1500 Watts which potentially could quickly destroy your loudspeakers. Yes, you could use the built in limiters on the Crown to protect your cab, and let all that excess power just sit there and do nothing. But how are you going to properly drive the crown to begin with? You can add another cab, but I strongly suspect only if you can figure out a way to drive the Crown right. And how often are you going to need a pare of GK 2 X 12 cabs? That's just what I think as a former sound company owner without having your rig to test myself. Seems to me that a GK 2 X 12 ought to work pretty good, really.

And, by the way, some contributors to this thread did suggest that you dump all that peddle #$%$#, didn't they? Admittedly, I am old school. But gees Louise! A little of that goes a long way for a bass man. Just saying. At least until you get your basic tone going to your liking. Good luck!

 

[LowFactor]

I agree that there is an issue trying to drive the power amp off your pedal board. Would need to use the 1/4” out from the sans amp which is line level to properly push that amp. Since it looks like the amp only has xlr in you would need 1/4” to to xlr adapter. If you want to drive it off your pedal board maybe look into one of the Mesa preamp pedals. Those are designed to properly drive a power amp from their outputs.

 

[DeadheadSteve]

You guys are the best. Seriously. If you ever come to West Aus hit me up for a free beer!

I'm leaning towards buying a "new" amp better suited towards pushing my cab, and holding on to the power amp in case i end up being able to afford another cab in the future.
I can get a Peavey MiniMega cheap second hand right now. Thats 1000w @ 4ohms, that should run my 600w 8ohm cab @ around 400/500w correct?

 

[Nevada Pete]

You guys are the best. Seriously. If you ever come to West Aus hit me up for a free beer!

I'm leaning towards buying a "new" amp better suited towards pushing my cab, and holding on to the power amp in case i end up being able to afford another cab in the future.
I can get a Peavey MiniMega cheap second hand right now. Thats 1000w @ 4ohms, that should run my 600w 8ohm cab @ around 400/500w correct?

Yes, that's the theory, and it usually works out that way. Peavey has a good reputation for making solid reliable gear. Check it out and see how it sounds. It wouldn't surprise me if you liked it better. Good luck!

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hey Guys,

I work a job with a limited income, and have paved my bass playing ways by purchasing second hand and cheap for my entire life. Still in this position, however i have managed to save up enough money to consider upgrading part of my setup. I would like to draw from the infinite wealth of opinions!

Currently rocking - Ibanez GIO6, into board w/Envelope filter -> ebs comp -> Radial bigshot ABY to LS2 w/Keeley Red Dirt + dry, second split to a Proco Jugganaught -> old chorus, all blended with another LS2 into my Sansamp PBDDI, into a crown PowerAmp (1000w @ 2ohm), into a GKneo212 (600w 8ohm).

Issues that i find when I'm playing is;
- Not happy with tone. Spent hours tweaking nobs on the sansamp and working the digital EQ on the crown amp. Still not getting the "fatness" to the tone in the lows I'm seeking without overpowering the poweramp and redlining at "lower levels" to have a fatter tone.
- Drummer still can drown me out while im red-lining the PowerAmp and competing with an AC30 and Marshal Half Stack
- Limited to using speakon/xlr/speaker wiring only for outputs on PowerAmp
- No matter what i set the phase to on the split, i still have a volume drop when i "blend" the A + B channel on my last LS2. Only been able to effectively set up a stereo chain with select-able channels when i wanted parallel signals

What i cant figure out is, am i not happy because i am getting a sub-par tone that's not cutting or blending too well with the band, or is it a matter of volume?
Should i look at getting a "real" bass amp with more outpout/tone possibilities, or buy another cab to run with the 212 to make up for the little extra oomph im missing?

As much as i would love to pack my gear and head to a shop to try out stuff, I would feel terrible knowing I'm going in to not buy anything. Hopefully one (or more) of you beautiful people have been in the same situation and can point me in the right direction.

DeadHead.

I would totally eliminate everything you have going on, and run straight into an amp. Adjust stock knobs (amp and bass) to find your tone. Add effects after that has been achieved. Make adjustments for added effects.

Another 212 will do you wonders also by the way. Or, trade or sell to get a 6 or 810. More speakers, more sound. I love 412s, but I do have to admit that having one cab instead of two has its perks. Also its drawbacks. Easy load ins, but only one cab option.

 

[Jazz Ad]

That's a lot of good gear.
I'd start by ditching everything before the sansAmp, push levels very far on all units without carrying about any blinking light and see where it brings me volumewise.
If you don't get heard this way, the poweramp/sansAmp duo may easily be replaced with a mid market 500w class D head. If you go 2nd head you may even make a buck out of it.

 

[Nevada Pete]

You guys are the best. Seriously. If you ever come to West Aus hit me up for a free beer!

I'm leaning towards buying a "new" amp better suited towards pushing my cab, and holding on to the power amp in case i end up being able to afford another cab in the future.
I can get a Peavey MiniMega cheap second hand right now. Thats 1000w @ 4ohms, that should run my 600w 8ohm cab @ around 400/500w correct?

Okay, I’m going to dive a little deeper into the bottomless pit of dBV, dBu, and voltage measurements in audio because I am not convinced at all that you can use the 1/4” output of your Sansamp to drive your Crown xti2000 to full power as suggested. Agedhorse is the authority on these matters, but I will try as best I can to get the story of what’s happening with your bass rig out there so you can understand why your Sansamp won't properly drive your Crown xti. Ever. I'll use information in the owner’s manuals for the gear you own, and from certain other gear as examples. This gets somewhat complex. That’s why I partnered with an audio engineer who went to MIT when we started the sound company. But here it goes, for better of for worse.

I assume you have the owner’s manual for your Sansamp PBDDI, a very nice piece of gear to be sure. For the 1/4” output, the manual says:

<1/4” OUTPUT: Unbalanced 1KOhm low Z output. Sends effected or bypassed signal to amp rig or power amp.

1/4” Out Boost Switch: +10dB boost to match the output to equipment with different input level requirements. In the instrument level (up) position, the nominal output is -10dB. In the line level (down) position, the output is 0dB.>

So it says you can use the 1/4” output from the Sansamp to send a signal to your bass amp rig. The line level setting gives you a +10dB boost to match the Sansamp’s output to equipment with different input level requirements than a bass amp rig, for example. Trust me when I say that with the +10dB boost on the Sansamp engaged, you have 0.775 Vrms which is called “0 dBu”. By comparison, your -10 dB level is approximately 0.3 volts.

As an example of how a signal level of 0.775 Vrms (0 dBu) could be employed to drive an audio power amplifier, lets look at the Crown XLS series of power amplifiers which were designed for the purpose you had in mind.

In the owner’s manual for Crown XLS power amplifiers under Input Sensitivity, it says:

<The INPUT SENSITIVITY feature enables the playback from sources with inherently low output levels to drive the amplifier to full power by selecting ".775 - HIGH." It is recommended that this remain set at the default NORMAL setting for all other audio sources to provide optimal system performance. The HIGH setting is often used with source devices that use RCA connections.>

Okay, so with the XLS amplifier, you have two selections on the input where you will inject your drive signal. The selections are NORMAL, and HIGH. Note that this refers to normal and high sensitivity! So proceeding forward in the owner’s manual to “Performance Specifications”, it says under “sensitivity” that there are two sensitivity selections available for the XLS series amplifiers, namely 0.775 Vrms (HIGH sensitivity) and 1.4 Vrms (NORMAL sensitivity). Note that Crown calls the 0.775 Vrms setting HIGH sensitivity because it drives the amplifier to full power with a weaker signal.

Trust me again that 0 dBu = 0.775 volts. Remember, “0 dB” is like the difference between the dating era’s BC and AD. “0 dB” does not mean there’s no signal. It is a reference point established by convention as 0.775 volts.

Since the Sansamp manual says their unit has the capability of sending a 0 dB drive signal (0.775 volts) to a power amplifier, and since the Crown XLS series amplifiers have the capability to accept a 0.775 volt drive signal (0 dB) to produce full power, we know we can properly drive Crown XLS series power amplifiers with your Sansamp. Great! If you had a Crown XLS power amplifier which is designed for the purpose you had in mind, you would be good to go by setting the input sensitivity of any Crown XLS series power amplifier to HIGH, and using the +10 dB line level boost setting on your Sansamp. But you don’t have a Crown XLS series amplifier. You have a Crown xti2000 which was not designed for the purpose you had in mind. So let’s see what the owner’s manual for the xti2000 has to say about input sensitivity.

On page 33 of the owner’s manual for the Crown xti2000 it says:

<Sensitivity (volts RMS) for full rated power at 4 ohms 1.4 volts.>

Understand that Crown is rating their sensitivity level at 4 ohms as a base line. The sensitivity doesn’t actually change with the loudspeaker impedance load on the amplifier. The power output of the amplifier changes.

Okay, so what the heck is 1.4 volts? Well, we would call that professional audio line level, or +4 dBu. “+4 dBu” is what we use to drive massive banks of power amplifiers or giant integrated line arrays at a big show, for example. In top tier recording studios, “+4 dBu” is also considered the “Studio Level International” for alignment purposes. Stuff like that. In the field, you just call it “plus 4”. Everybody knows what you mean.

So what’s going to happen when you attempt to drive a power amplifier designed for a +4 dB drive signal like your Crown xti with a 0 dB drive signal instead? Well, you are going to loose half your power, basically. Here is a website (pretty long web address!) that graphs all this out:

dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbfs converter calculation online attenuation loss gain ratio reference audio engineering sound recording dBFS dBVU 0 dB audio logarithm level converter peak to peak p-p impedance voltage pro consumer audio digital analog recording level - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Scroll down to where it says:

<Scale: Level in dBu and dBV in comparison to the voltage in V>

There you will find a neat graphic of a thermometer and a nifty little chart below it that gives you the relative comparisons between Studio Level International (Professional Line Level), Standard Level (1 Volt), Standard Level (0.775 Volt) and Domestic Level (-10 dBV).

Crown has specified their xti series as requiring 1.4 volts to drive the amplifier to full power (Professional Line Level). So you would design / calibrate your line drivers to this specification. You don’t have line drivers capable of +4 output on your bass rig and that’s why you can’t drive the xti to full power. That xti2000 is quite an amplifier and has the capability of operating in stereo with a 2 ohm load per channel. It would be a great power amplifier to run a PA system provided you know how to select the proper loudspeakers. A crown XLS would work better for your on stage rig.

From the Crown XLS web page, select any of the XLS amplifiers and take a look at the power matrix that compares the power output of each amp.

Crown XLS 2502

Note that the former XLS 1002 in bridged mode can provide 700 watts into 8 ohms and 1100 watts into 4 ohms. With proper caution that would be ideal for your GK 2 X 12” cab (or two). It would be even more ideal for the newer GK 800 watt 2 X 12 cabs. You knew I was going to say that, didn’t you? This is TB, after all! Your cab is fine! More than fine.

Anyway, the new XLS2002 is probably pretty similar to the old XLS 1002 and they are only $550.00 (give or take). If you sell that xti you could buy several of them! Crown amplifiers retain their value. Especially their monster amps like you bought! So there's another option for you.

Now you know that line level, per se, can be many things. So sound guys who know what they are doing will specify what kind of line level they might be talking about. Anyway, Good luck!

 

[Jazz Ad]

Here's a short solution to the full explanation of your problem given above : plug one of your Boss LS-2 between the bass and the amp, with the PBDDI in one of the loops.
The return from the LS-2 allows +20 dB of clean boost that will easily compensate for the lack of output of the PBDDI.

 

[Nevada Pete]

Here's a short solution to the full explanation of your problem given above : plug one of your Boss LS-2 between the bass and the amp, with the PBDDI in one of the loops.
The return from the LS-2 allows +20 dB of clean boost that will easily compensate for the lack of output of the PBDDI.

From the Boss LS-2 specifications it says:

Nominal Output Level -20 dBu.

-20 dBu is .08 volts.

The red and green level controls say there’s +20 [dB] of gain.

[-20 dBu] + [+20 dBu] = 0 dBu = 0.775 Volts

 

[DeadheadSteve]

Damn Pete. Thank you for teaching me something new today!

So the poweramp is designed to have a higher lever input than what the sansamp can provide, even with the boost on as it will only ever be 0dBu or 0.775v.

Don't suppose there's some sort of PA boost box (that's not a mixing desk) that takes xlr and can up my volt output to 1.4v?

Thank you for your input everyone. I've decided to go ahead and line up the Peavey minimega. It's had mixed reviews but the people who had good things to say had nothing but praise, plus it means I should be getting more than twice the watts going into my cab now, seeing as I wasn't technically even getting the 250w due to my lack of input.

Stay awesome.
Deadhead

 

[Nevada Pete]

Damn Pete. Thank you for teaching me something new today!

So the poweramp is designed to have a higher lever input than what the sansamp can provide, even with the boost on as it will only ever be 0dBu or 0.775v.

Don't suppose there's some sort of PA boost box (that's not a mixing desk) that takes xlr and can up my volt output to 1.4v?

Thank you for your input everyone. I've decided to go ahead and line up the Peavey minimega. It's had mixed reviews but the people who had good things to say had nothing but praise, plus it means I should be getting more than twice the watts going into my cab now, seeing as I wasn't technically even getting the 250w due to my lack of input.

Stay awesome.
Deadhead

Your welcome! My pleasure. The bonus for me was stumbling across the sengpielaudio website. What a treasure. Now I can dig out my trusty scientific calculator, find a battery for it and see how bad I can hack up those formula's trying to solve them!

That was just one page of the sengpielaudio website I cited. There's a wealth of information there, and you don't have to be a math wizz to grasp all of it, either. Some of it, yes. But not all of it. Check it out.

Invalid Link Removed

<So the poweramp is designed to have a higher lever input than what the sansamp can provide, even with the boost on as it will only ever be 0dBu or 0.775v.>

Precisely. You got it. Nothing wrong with the Sansamp. It's a very well respected brand and a great piece of gear. Crown manufactures amplifiers that can be driven with it. You just don't happen to have one. You have a fire breathing monster designed for sound reinforcement use exclusively. Get seven more of them and you too could start a sound company!

<Don't suppose there's some sort of PA boost box (that's not a mixing desk) that takes xlr and can up my volt output to 1.4v?>

There probably is. It would be one more thing to go wrong, and one more thing in your signal chain. Sounds like something that would be fun to try, though.

<Thank you for your input everyone. I've decided to go ahead and line up the Peavey minimega. It's had mixed reviews but the people who had good things to say had nothing but praise, plus it means I should be getting more than twice the watts going into my cab now, seeing as I wasn't technically even getting the 250w due to my lack of input.>

Peavey's got a solid reputation for good reason, and their not going anywhere. Let us know how it works out.

 

[DeadheadSteve]

Hey guys, picked up my Mini Mega yesterday and HOLY COW WHAT A BEAST!

Instant differences I've noticed;
- much more volume and headroom. I had my cab louder than I've had it before with a spanking sparkly clean tone. The 500w headroom is AMAZING. It was louder at a quarter turn than my crown cranked 100%.

- Pre-amp is super transparent. Which is probably not a good thing for some people, but perfect for me as I design my tone from my board to direct record to PC. Now i can actually replicate the true tone i hear when I plug in to my Mbox through my cab! I was really worried i would have to choose one or the other (or bypass and use efx loop) but the two pre-amps compliment each other quite nicely without raising the floor noise to a bad level.

- The extra EQ controls (especially the double parametric mid controls) are what make this thing superb. There is an inbuilt synth-octaver that does an octave down + lower harmonics (psycho-acoustics) that you can blend in to give yourself a bit deeper low end. A "Punch" and "bright" button under the low and high knob that gives a slight boost to the lower and upper frequencies. You have to be careful using these things at the same time as it can suck your tone really bad and make it sound like slapping wet dirt or dragging a coin against a lead guitars G string. The mid controls help dial in the cut and throatiness that i may need in a band situation.

I find the punch + a TINY amount of Kosmos with my bass EQ set at noon really filled out the low end on my cab, and i even found myself occasionally rolling back the highs or adjusting the tweeter. Even managed to make it sound like a guitar amp with a bass guitar underneath when we ran my mates strat through it.

- The Comp seems to act more as a limiter than a compressor, so it might be handy if i decide to go stupid loud at some point in the future and not damage speakers but it does little to "bring up" the subtleties in my tone that the EBS multiband comp does better.

- The Gain goes from 0 - 10, then press the crunch button to bring it up to 20! Instant boost into the pre-amp to bring in some nice warm distortion to the upper harmonics (seems to leave lower frequencies alone) that you can then EQ to be super aggressive and cutty or dialed back for some warm tube-esque vintage tones.

With parallel speaker output on the back, efx loops, XLR + TRS balanced direct outs this small little unit brings unbelievable volume and clarity at like what, 7 pounds heavy? It comes with a shoulder bag to carry it in for crying out loud.

 

[DeadheadSteve]

Really doesn't want me to upload a picture for some reason.

 

[Sumaru]

Hey guys, picked up my Mini Mega yesterday and HOLY COW WHAT A BEAST!

Instant differences I've noticed;
- much more volume and headroom. I had my cab louder than I've had it before with a spanking sparkly clean tone. The 500w headroom is AMAZING. It was louder at a quarter turn than my crown cranked 100%.

- Pre-amp is super transparent. Which is probably not a good thing for some people, but perfect for me as I design my tone from my board to direct record to PC. Now i can actually replicate the true tone i hear when I plug in to my Mbox through my cab! I was really worried i would have to choose one or the other (or bypass and use efx loop) but the two pre-amps compliment each other quite nicely without raising the floor noise to a bad level.

- The extra EQ controls (especially the double parametric mid controls) are what make this thing superb. There is an inbuilt synth-octaver that does an octave down + lower harmonics (psycho-acoustics) that you can blend in to give yourself a bit deeper low end. A "Punch" and "bright" button under the low and high knob that gives a slight boost to the lower and upper frequencies. You have to be careful using these things at the same time as it can suck your tone really bad and make it sound like slapping wet dirt or dragging a coin against a lead guitars G string. The mid controls help dial in the cut and throatiness that i may need in a band situation.

I find the punch + a TINY amount of Kosmos with my bass EQ set at noon really filled out the low end on my cab, and i even found myself occasionally rolling back the highs or adjusting the tweeter. Even managed to make it sound like a guitar amp with a bass guitar underneath when we ran my mates strat through it.

- The Comp seems to act more as a limiter than a compressor, so it might be handy if i decide to go stupid loud at some point in the future and not damage speakers but it does little to "bring up" the subtleties in my tone that the EBS multiband comp does better.

- The Gain goes from 0 - 10, then press the crunch button to bring it up to 20! Instant boost into the pre-amp to bring in some nice warm distortion to the upper harmonics (seems to leave lower frequencies alone) that you can then EQ to be super aggressive and cutty or dialed back for some warm tube-esque vintage tones.

With parallel speaker output on the back, efx loops, XLR + TRS balanced direct outs this small little unit brings unbelievable volume and clarity at like what, 7 pounds heavy? It comes with a shoulder bag to carry it in for crying out loud.

Love mine also! Not used as my main rig, but just for practice. Could easily carry the show if needed!