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Summoning Elite Troubleshooters
- Thread starter Crosscheck67
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- 60 cycle hum emg emi ground hum
Just to be clear, I wasn't trashing EMG. I think you may have a bad pickup. Anyway...
Don't know if this helps, but the Yamaha site said of the Pattitucci bass that they are Alnico humbuckers. I'm not familiar with EMG's J bass pickups at all, as I prefer passive pickups fed to an active pre.
Don't know if this helps, but the Yamaha site said of the Pattitucci bass that they are Alnico humbuckers. I'm not familiar with EMG's J bass pickups at all, as I prefer passive pickups fed to an active pre.
Dig it. Since both pickups are producing the same problematic sound, what's your take? Either way, I plan on getting another pickup to try, because I clearly have to at this point.
Both pickups, wow. That tells me it's something else. If it were me it would all come out and be replaced with the simplest circuit I could put together. If you had a single j bass pickup, I'd start with a passive Pbass circuit using the single pickup. I'd get that working and then expand.
The alternative is to take it back to a tech, the best in town, and just tell him to make it work.
I've never come up against such a persistent problem, but then my method of troubleshooting involves replacing parts, not testing them and reusing them. I throw stuff away that gives me grief.
The alternative is to take it back to a tech, the best in town, and just tell him to make it work.
I've never come up against such a persistent problem, but then my method of troubleshooting involves replacing parts, not testing them and reusing them. I throw stuff away that gives me grief.
Before you do that...
Is there any way you can get a bass you know to be otherwise silent to your home? Maybe you know someone with a quiet bass, or perhaps you can borrow/rent one from a music shop. To me, that's the only troubleshooting step that hasn't been tried (unless I missed it). Is the EMI at your house in fact a defeater of all quiet designs of pickups? I'm not convinced it is, but I'm not there with my bass to be able to prove it one way or the other.
And oh yeah, I forgot about a pickup I'd recommend if you want quiet and tone -- Q-Tuners.
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Ya long thread, I did try that. My son has two basses, both with passive pickups, active preamps. Plus he and I both have guitars with passive humbuckers. But here's the weird thing with all those: they don't have the same hum...they have a staticy buzz, and it's worse when combining pickups rather than playing through one. That destroys my understanding of how this works. I'm starting to think the guy on page one was right about contacting the X Files team.
Interesting. Combining pickups works on a Jazz bass, and other similar basses that have two single coil pickups that are oppositely wound and polarized from each other. Others, such as Rickenbacker (who knows why?) are not designed that way, and have single coil pickups that have the same polarity and winding. On such basses, the hum adds, not cancels, when both pickups are used. Other basses have a hum canceling pickup along with a single coil pickup -- I have one such bass that I kept in my guitar player's studio where, because of the ancient wiring in that building, I couldn't use one of the pickups unless I faced in one specific direction as I was playing.
But none of that should apply to basses & guitars with humbuckers.
Humbucking is not a golden ticket to silent operation. Combining two single coil pickups to make a humbucker in order to reduce noise only works for noise that is picked up equally between the two pickup coils and whatever portions of their wiring leads are equivalent. In theory, if the pickup coils themselves are equal or close to equal, the noise picked up in the coils (as in - the wire wraps in the coil itself) should more or less get cancelled 100%. But often a bridge pickup is wound with more turns, so there will be a slight difference in how strong the noise signal is between the two pickups and it won't get fully cancelled. And if you have noise being picked up elsewhere in the bass (i.e. wiring, controls, etc) or noise being picked up or generated elsewhere in the signal path (i.e. jack, cable, effects, amp, etc) the pickup configuration doesn't make a single bit of difference.
Since the pickups can only humbuck the noise they pick up, you will always get some noise from elsewhere, even with humbucking pickups or single coils used as a humbucking pair. Other noise reduction methods (shielding, noise rejection through onboard preamps like EMG uses, etc) are always just rejecting a fraction of the noise - there's no ticket to a literal 100% clean signal. Often, the fraction of noise rejected is large enough that the bass is perceived as "silent" and everyone is happy. But - if you have an odd situation - lots of noise in your area, or something else unusual - you get noise you can hear. The universe is washed in noise, and it can vary locally here on earth by orders of magnitude in the span of feet or yards or miles. These situations are hard to diagnose and solve in a direct manner, which is why no one can give you a straight answer in your thread. The level to which certain blocking techniques work in most situations is so good that musicians sometimes form beliefs that certain methods are 100% successful no matter what. That's unfortunate, because it can lead to people pushing the belief that certain methods are always foolproof, so if a certain method doesn't work for you, then it's somehow "your fault." That's just not true.
The good news is that noise reduction methods can be stacked on each other. Let's say you have a passive bass with one single coil pickup and it's really noisy. You swap the pickup for a humbucker and drop 50% of the noise. But that's not good enough. You still hear 50% of the noise and the bass is no good. So you swap the pickup for an EMG humbucker, with their internal shielding and onboard preamp that can reject 90% of the noise. Now you're down to 90% of the remaining 50%, so you're only hearing 5% of the original noise. But you live next to a big power transmission line, or your music room is in the basement right next to your furnace, or something else strange is happening, and that's still not good enough. So you add shielding. Let's say the shielding blocks 90% of the noise. Now you're only hearing 0.5% of the noise and you're finally happy! Or you swap to a different pickup that has an EQ curve that doesn't emphasize the noise as much and you're finally happy! Or you make some other seemingly unrelated change and the noise gets better and you're finally happy! Or maybe you swap to a pickup that only drops 30% of the noise and it gets worse, and you have to start over...
Since the pickups can only humbuck the noise they pick up, you will always get some noise from elsewhere, even with humbucking pickups or single coils used as a humbucking pair. Other noise reduction methods (shielding, noise rejection through onboard preamps like EMG uses, etc) are always just rejecting a fraction of the noise - there's no ticket to a literal 100% clean signal. Often, the fraction of noise rejected is large enough that the bass is perceived as "silent" and everyone is happy. But - if you have an odd situation - lots of noise in your area, or something else unusual - you get noise you can hear. The universe is washed in noise, and it can vary locally here on earth by orders of magnitude in the span of feet or yards or miles. These situations are hard to diagnose and solve in a direct manner, which is why no one can give you a straight answer in your thread. The level to which certain blocking techniques work in most situations is so good that musicians sometimes form beliefs that certain methods are 100% successful no matter what. That's unfortunate, because it can lead to people pushing the belief that certain methods are always foolproof, so if a certain method doesn't work for you, then it's somehow "your fault." That's just not true.
The good news is that noise reduction methods can be stacked on each other. Let's say you have a passive bass with one single coil pickup and it's really noisy. You swap the pickup for a humbucker and drop 50% of the noise. But that's not good enough. You still hear 50% of the noise and the bass is no good. So you swap the pickup for an EMG humbucker, with their internal shielding and onboard preamp that can reject 90% of the noise. Now you're down to 90% of the remaining 50%, so you're only hearing 5% of the original noise. But you live next to a big power transmission line, or your music room is in the basement right next to your furnace, or something else strange is happening, and that's still not good enough. So you add shielding. Let's say the shielding blocks 90% of the noise. Now you're only hearing 0.5% of the noise and you're finally happy! Or you swap to a different pickup that has an EQ curve that doesn't emphasize the noise as much and you're finally happy! Or you make some other seemingly unrelated change and the noise gets better and you're finally happy! Or maybe you swap to a pickup that only drops 30% of the noise and it gets worse, and you have to start over...
Pics, or it didn't happen.
Between the test video you showed us and the exotic dirigible shield you made, I've got nothing else at the moment except to try new and different pickups, same as you and others concluded. Just to be sure, was the test shield setup grounded to the amp/bass ground?
Gotta say, you put in a large, methodical, and valiant effort on this. Just sorry it's looking like poo-poo right now. Seems to me that particular series EMG pickup just won't withstand higher field strengths.
Since you live in an area with those high power lines, maybe an investment into a trifield meter, or similar field strength tester, would be good. Take some readings now for your own reference. If you move, you can see if the field strength is better or worse than your current location.
Back to the X-Files reference, those trifield meters are also used by ghost hunters, so if you move, you can mess with the realtor. As you enter the potential home, whip out the meter and say you're checking if the spirits want you to move in LOL. I own one, but not for ghost hunting. Wanted to check our old microwave for door leakage.
Dig it. That makes a lot of sense. Believe it or not, I appreciate lengthy explanations rather than viewing them as kryptonite, especially since I'm learning all this and fielding different hypotheses simultaneously. Repetition helps, although it might make you guys tear your hair out.
Ok you got a couple legit audible laughs from this one. So with the wrap/ground I did, explaining it would be difficult. Pics won't help much as so many parts have layers of shielding, plus insulation, you won't see what's going on. So here's my two part plan:Pics, or it didn't happen.
Between the test video you showed us and the exotic dirigible shield you made, I've got nothing else at the moment except to try new and different pickups, same as you and others concluded. Just to be sure, was the test shield setup grounded to the amp/bass ground?
Gotta say, you put in a large, methodical, and valiant effort on this. Just sorry it's looking like poo-poo right now. Seems to me that particular series EMG pickup just won't withstand higher field strengths.
Since you live in an area with those high power lines, maybe an investment into a trifield meter, or similar field strength tester, would be good. Take some readings now for your own reference. If you move, you can see if the field strength is better or worse than your current location.
Back to the X-Files reference, those trifield meters are also used by ghost hunters, so if you move, you can mess with the realtor. As you enter the potential home, whip out the meter and say you're checking if the spirits want you to move in LOL. I own one, but not for ghost hunting. Wanted to check our old microwave for door leakage.
I'm going to procure another brand and/or type of pickup, and see if it suffers the same way in and out of the bass. If not, I'll check in with you guys to see why.
If it does, I'll commence on trashing yet another set of strings, and slowly, carefully, shield everything as I've been told, and throw up another video.
Part of me wants to quit, and I probably would have by now if I was doing this solo. But I feel pretty accountable to a bunch of strangers taking time out of their lives to help me for FREE.
Let's assume the OP gets new pickups and it still does it. Can it be fixed the Alembic way, via a dummy pickup in the center?
Questions like this can't be answered without knowing where the noise is coming from.
Pretty much every piece of metal or other conductive material in the universe is an antenna for noise. If the metal is in an electrical circuit with something that makes sound, the noise will cause it's own signal in that circuit (otherwise it essentially gets re-radiated instead). And if the noise is in an audible frequency, you may hear it as hum or buzz depending on where in the circuit the metal is. Essentially, if the noise is picked up between the pickup and ground, you don't hear it. If the noise is picked up within the pickup coil (or, at least, within the "top" half of the coil in terms of ground vs signal), or on the signal side of the pickup, you hear it. Every piece of metal counts. Noise isn't a pickup problem, it's a conductor problem.
Dummy pickups essentially act like half-humbuckers in that they're meant to pick up noise that's deliberately out of phase with the noise being picked up elsewhere in the circuit (in a "live" pickup). If the noise you hear from your speaker is being caused from noise being picked up by your pickup, then a dummy coil will (in theory) cancel it.
But if your noise is coming from the wires between the pickup and the controls, or the controls themselves, or the wiring in your amp, or a poor ground in your USB interface, or somewhere else - well then, adding the dummy coil isn't going to do a single thing.
Thanks for that. I think Alembic did it to counter potential noise in the series 1 2 basses because they used single coil pickups. One would assume that humbucking stacked or series jazz wouldn't need anything like that, but the op's problem seems so severe as to make me start asking hail Mary type questions.
He also says the hum exists with both pickups in and active making me think there might be something wrong elsewhere in the system. Hence my approach to tear it all out and create a passive system as a test.
Update:
So the two approaches of shielding vs testing another pickup are clashing a bit, as I'm stuck here on this linear timeline in space.
If I go all out and shield right away, then I don't have an unshielded environment in which to test another pickup vs EMG. Plus no one near me has small copper tubing for the wiring channels, so I have to wait for Saturday at the earliest.
If I get another pickup first, I don't want to waste money on one I won't keep, plus it's going to result in me wanting the full set along with a preamp, so I have either dual or tri-band onboard tonal control. I don't want to sell my EMG setup until a final decision is made, in case future testing procedures require comparisons. This equals a lot of dollars which I've already thrown many of at this. I might start out with just the bridge pickup, but I really want the convenience of apples to apples.
The Nordstrand recommendation keeps bouncing around in my head so I checked out some video demos with headphones on. Holy hell these are no joke @bdplaid
I had a long talk with their lead engineer today - wicked cool guy. Lots of Q&A. He had some strong thoughts about the need for shielding and considers the claim that mine don't need it is, well, "untrue", based on all the instruments and electronics he's worked on for a really long time, including EMG. But what do I know.
I've got their NJ5FS J pickups with their 3B-4B prewired preamp in my crosshairs. This will require another hole drilled, but hey...all in the name of tone...and figuring out the solution for this cured noise.
So the two approaches of shielding vs testing another pickup are clashing a bit, as I'm stuck here on this linear timeline in space.
If I go all out and shield right away, then I don't have an unshielded environment in which to test another pickup vs EMG. Plus no one near me has small copper tubing for the wiring channels, so I have to wait for Saturday at the earliest.
If I get another pickup first, I don't want to waste money on one I won't keep, plus it's going to result in me wanting the full set along with a preamp, so I have either dual or tri-band onboard tonal control. I don't want to sell my EMG setup until a final decision is made, in case future testing procedures require comparisons. This equals a lot of dollars which I've already thrown many of at this. I might start out with just the bridge pickup, but I really want the convenience of apples to apples.
The Nordstrand recommendation keeps bouncing around in my head so I checked out some video demos with headphones on. Holy hell these are no joke @bdplaid
I had a long talk with their lead engineer today - wicked cool guy. Lots of Q&A. He had some strong thoughts about the need for shielding and considers the claim that mine don't need it is, well, "untrue", based on all the instruments and electronics he's worked on for a really long time, including EMG. But what do I know.
I've got their NJ5FS J pickups with their 3B-4B prewired preamp in my crosshairs. This will require another hole drilled, but hey...all in the name of tone...and figuring out the solution for this cured noise.
First, if Nordstrand said it, believe it.
Second, you don't need to change your pre in order to use the Nordy pickups.
Third, you don't need to drill a hole right away. Let the extra pot hang out until you see if you like it.
Fourth, I've never used a Nordy pre, but I've used many EMG pre's. Emg are kinda the low end, nice because of the packaging but not the best.
Fifth, IMO Audere makes the best pre out there. The Z control is very cool, and they use screw terminals for the pickups.
With that said, if it were me I'd get the pickups only and go from there.
And you can always sell whatever you don't like. And if you cruise TB classifieds and Reverb you might find some used pickups.
Second, you don't need to change your pre in order to use the Nordy pickups.
Third, you don't need to drill a hole right away. Let the extra pot hang out until you see if you like it.
Fourth, I've never used a Nordy pre, but I've used many EMG pre's. Emg are kinda the low end, nice because of the packaging but not the best.
Fifth, IMO Audere makes the best pre out there. The Z control is very cool, and they use screw terminals for the pickups.
With that said, if it were me I'd get the pickups only and go from there.
And you can always sell whatever you don't like. And if you cruise TB classifieds and Reverb you might find some used pickups.
You can cheat. Find a straw that is big enough for pickup wires and small enough to fit in the wire channel. Wrap part of the straw with copper tape with the adhesive facing out, then wrap it again with copper tape with the adhesive facing in. Slide the straw into the channel until the copper tape-tube is in place. Cut the ends of the copper tape and spread them to form to the cavity, and withdraw the straw. Then solder everything in place. You now have completely shielded pickup wire channels.
