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SUNN Sceptre - Question about usage with bass.

slavestate

slavestate

Dec 20, 2011
39
2
#1
Hello there,

I might be picking up a Sceptre head that I would be using for bass. I have a 4x12 Acoustic Control cabinet that I would be playing it through which is 4 Ohms. The band that I play in uses two 50 watt guitar amps into 4x12's and we play almost at full volume on the guitar amps.

My question is, with this amp being around 60 watts RMS (?) would it be able to be heard through the mix?

I would be purchasing it as an investment regardless if it didn't work for bass, however I would like to use it in this application.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
 
#2
Good investment if the price is right but 60 watts is not enough to keep up the band u described. Plus its not a bass amp. IMO....im sure you could modify it to better suit bass but still the 60watts would get slaughtered by two guitarists w/ 50 watt amps at full volume...and do u guys have a drummer?
 
#3
Yeah, we've got a drummer. He hits pretty damn hard too. I'm just looking for the bass to have enough punch to cut through the mix a bit. We've had problems with a PLUSH 4000G in that it's TOO loud. With the volume potentiometer just past 2 it is just way to loud, and anything below that it's not loud enough. It pushes 4 EL 34 tubes, and I was anticipating the Sceptre using 6550's pushing 60 that it would be around 5-6 on the volume knob with a bit of bite. The price is fair I would say, not an insane deal but not overpriced either.

I picked up a Sovtek MIG 50B and that was about 50 watts and clearly not loud enough, but the amp seemed to have a few issues and I returned it so I'm wondering if it was 100% whether or not it would have been okay.

The bassist has a GK 800R and the way he has the settings it's so anemic. He's very firm on his amp settings, so we've been suggesting a different amp, preferably tube so he gets some nice sag and still punch with his pick. We've found that with the older tube amps there aren't as many settings to muck up the sound.

I have been researching Ampeg V4 and B25 heads as well, but those are a bit more money than the Sceptre I have found. Perhaps I just pounce on a V4 or B25?

Thanks!
 
#4
really 4 el34's in the power section is too much? im not he most knowledgeable but i really dont think a tube guitar amp with 60 watts would cut thru enough on bass. although i think it would be enough it was being used for guitar. Hopefully one of the many knowledgeable bass players will chime in for a better opinion. good luck!! oh and i think u shoulda held on to that sovtek!
 
#5
are you playing the bass or is someone else, I'm not clear by your comment that "the bassist has a GK800RB and it sounds anemic....".

Regardless, the amps you list aren't going to cut it for that kind of band setting, no way. Nowhere near enough power unless you daisy chain umpteen 8-10s........

OTOH, that 800RB should do the job, it's 300 watts at 4 ohms. What's up with the settings that "can't be touched"? I use one routinely with a 2-15 cab and have no problems being heard in the band setting you describe. That amp is plenty w/2-15, 4-10s, 2-12s, 8-10s, whatever works for you as long as you have the drivers. That's an amp renowned for "punch" and ability to either cut through or sit well in the mix, very versatile.

But like anything else, the guitarists can't be full tilt on the volume, that's insane w/that much power. For the sake of everyone's hearing turn 'em down. If they can't get the sound they want w/o full volume tell them to get power soaks. You will lose your audience and gigs otherwise, ask me how I know.....
 
#6
Someone else is playing bass, however I will be using for both guitar and bass on my own as well. The bassist has the GK set up the "way he likes it" and we've had plenty of discussion about how it sounds ridiculous with the mid-cut and the treble boost, so without any more arguing we figured just changing out the amp would be the best option to something with the least amount of knobs and buttons. Volume, Treble, Bass and if it has it, Presence. He was using the GK through a beat up 4x10 and it was not working both sonically and ascetically, as they are both pretty hammered.

The guitar amps aren't really overpowering even at 50 watts. Most of the time they are clean and have some fuzzed leads here and there. If anything the bass has been the issue of being too powerful, I'm just trying out some options.

In regards to the Sovtek, I couldn't keep the Sovtek knowing it would have to be serviced. I paid a decent penny for it and anticipated it to be in 100% working condition. It was damaged in shipment to me, so back it went.
 
#7
a tone tug of war, eh? What's the purpose of a more "simple" control layout? So you guys can switch to your sounds quickly?

Why not look into the GK 200MB? About as simple as it gets and still has the basic GK sound (if that's what you like). 200 watts into a decent 4-10, 2-12, 2-15 will probably do for your needs if you guys aren't insanely loud.

For more coin there's the MB combos, also very simple layout. Might even find them used.

Honestly, 50 to 100 watts of tubes really isn't enough to carry a room in a band setting unless like I said earlier you're toting umpteen big speaker cabs.

Or you're playing through several of them simultaneously, remember those pics of Jack Bruce in Cream w/the walls of Marshalls?
 
#8
Your bassist needs to understand that what sounds good solo, will suck in a band mix. He needs to BOOST the mids, and maybe roll the highs and lows back a tad. Should work like a champ, but if he's not willing to do this, and sound good, well.....
 
#10
RickenBoogie said:
Your bassist needs to understand that what sounds good solo, will suck in a band mix. He needs to BOOST the mids, and maybe roll the highs and lows back a tad. Should work like a champ, but if he's not willing to do this, and sound good, well.....
Click to expand...

I agree that this is the underlying point of this overall discussion.

With all of that said, I'll update this thread with any findings if I actually pounce on that Sceptre.

Thank you again.
 
#12
James Hart said:
I had a Sceptre as a bass head, bought it from a TBer and then sold it to another TBer... all 3 of us used it in band settings. If you want modern hifi slap type tone... go elsewhere. Looking for nice classic rock to doom bass grind, it might do you nicely :)
Click to expand...

That's definitely our speed. We play heavy blues rock stuff. I think I'm going to pounce. It will be a great back up guitar head if it doesn't work out for bass.

Thank you!
 
#13
slavestate said:
The bassist has a GK 800R and the way he has the settings it's so anemic. He's very firm on his amp settings...
Click to expand...

Usually it's the bass player asking for volume balance on stage and FOH.

How about asking him to go FOH with wireless or long cord and listen to his rig (maybe during a sound check) set like he wants it and then set like you think it fits better in the mix.

Also, if you're judging the bass tone from the stage only, then maybe you should go FOH to listen to the mix. Maybe it sounds different than you think.

IME, changing the amp won't fix the situation. The bass player will adjust it how he wants it. Why do you think he'll give up his current amp just because you buy another one?

Also, if you're running 2 guitars each with their own 50 watt amps/cabs at full volume, seems to me that you really don't have a handle on your own volume issues as far as the mix goes.

To solve the problem, I think you should buy a 1000w bass amp and add another 4x12 bass cab so he can drown you both out. :eek::eyebrow:

Based on your approach to stage volume/FOH mix, doubt you'll get much support on TB for your amateur approach. :atoz:

Good luck with that.
 
#14
Stumbo said:
Usually it's the bass player asking for volume balance on stage and FOH.

How about asking him to go FOH with wireless or long cord and listen to his rig (maybe during a sound check) set like he wants it and then set like you think it fits better in the mix.

Also, if you're judging the bass tone from the stage only, then maybe you should go FOH to listen to the mix. Maybe it sounds different than you think.

IME, changing the amp won't fix the situation. The bass player will adjust it how he wants it. Why do you think he'll give up his current amp just because you buy another one?

Also, if you're running 2 guitars each with their own 50 watt amps/cabs at full volume, seems to me that you really don't have a handle on your own volume issues as far as the mix goes.

To solve the problem, I think you should buy a 1000w bass amp and add another 4x12 bass cab so he can drown you both out. :eek::eyebrow:

Based on your approach to stage volume/FOH mix, doubt you'll get much support on TB for your amateur approach. :atoz:

Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

This isn't a front of the house issue in regards to the overall level of the amplifiers. I was asking if a 60 watt amplifier would be suitable for bass because a 100 watt option was too loud. The GK is out of the scenario at this point, we haven't used it in months. The bassist has been very accommodating in changing out amps left and right, because he is becoming more aware that each amp has a different sound and he's actually getting into tube amps now. The solid state amps weren't really working with our sound, and we tried several new and vintage. Once we switched over to tube we all collectively noticed a difference for the better, which is why I opened this thread.

We do a ton of rehearsing, more than gigging at this point in various size locations. Some smaller than the gigs we play in, and some rehearsal spaces in a larger space. We have found that we all turn down for the smaller spaces, more specifically our main rehearsal space, approximately 15Lx12Wx10H.

With that said, it has definitely been a benefit with any amp we have used when there are less knobs and buttons in that there are less ways to destroy the tone sonically with treble boots, mid cuts, bass cuts etc...

We understand our volume levels and are trying to scale down the bass because with a couple of amps we have used, they were TOO loud, as previously stated. The guitar amps are typically clean, not overdriven and fuzzed. There are leads with crunch, but we are not being selfish. The drummer has mentioned several times he couldn't hear the guitars over the bass, and that is after we have rehearsed with amps in all types of positions in the room.

Much obliged.
 
#15
if you are sold on tube amps w/as few knobs as possible being the solution, then you're going to be spending some bucks.

In general it's better to have too much power and turn down, frankly.

I find it hard to believe that you're working w/too much bass power with an 800RB. It has two vols and a gain knob. You can get very low vol and still sound good. It's all about gain staging.

One relatively inexpensive and easy solution may be to get a SansAmp pedal and run it into the GK's effects return, using the SA as your preamp and control, it doesn't have a whole lotta controls on there. And it gets very close to the tube sound, esp for under 200 dollars.

That said, some of your best deals for tube bass amps w/few controls would be the Ampeg V4, and the Fender Bassman 135. Both around 100 watts or so and pretty simple. Those are north of 500 dollars. There's also some Traynors but I'm not as familiar with their layout, but they're good quality amps.

The biggest bargain in tube amps I'm aware of is the old Peavey Classic tube power amp series. They come in mono and stereo 60 watts and 120 watts. Rack sized. Hard to find but they're out there. Can be had between 200 and 300 or so dollars. I have the mono 60 and it's pretty darned nice sounding (2 6L6s). Get a decent preamp pedal like the Sansamp that emulates tubes and you're good to go. Or get an ART or the like mic tubed preamps for around 100. Not much in the way of eq but there's pedals to address that if you need more.
 
#16
dhsierra1 said:
That said, some of your best deals for tube bass amps w/few controls would be the Ampeg V4, and the Fender Bassman 135. Both around 100 watts or so and pretty simple. Those are north of 500 dollars. There's also some Traynors but I'm not as familiar with their layout, but they're good quality amps.
Click to expand...

I was looking at the V4's, and I have sourced some heads at just around 500. I jumped on the Sceptre, so perhaps down the road that would be a great option.

Definitely sold on tubes, can't go back now.
 
#17
#18
Right now we have two different 4x12's to play with. An ACC 105, which is massive and has tons of low end and an ACC 204, which is about your standard size 4x12 and still sounds great with both guitar and bass. Both are 4 ohms and have their original Eminence speakers with huge friggin' magnets. I've pushed both of them with my PLUSH 4000G and there wasn't a moment of farting or pooh pooh. I think both cabs are ratted at around 200-240 watts RMS.

I've sourced a 2x15 w/ horn as a possibility for the bass cabinet, but I'll wait to see if the 4x12's do justice. Would a 2x15 be more justifiable than the 4x12's?

I'm always looking locally for deals even if it means I purchase just to resell, as sometimes I find trying multiple amps for the same purpose a great learning experience.

If I could find another 100 watt tube amp option for a fair price I will definitely make the purchase. Until then, hopefully this set up will manage.

Also, that brochure was an awesome piece, I have the pictures saved.

Thanks again.
 
#19
those are definitely old cabs and from what I know of them they're better suited to guitar. No idea of efficiency. They're liked by some of the stoner/doom people, though, but you still need some low end somehow.

If it were me I'd look to drop in some modern efficient bass drivers into 4-10, 2-15 or 4-12. I'd look at Eminence Beta 12s (old school and affordable, nice drivers) or Basslite S2012s or perhaps DeltaLite 2512-IIs (both neo's, if you've the coin).

A couple of guys here, again JohnK_10 and Clammy have 4-12s loaded like that and love 'em. Someone else recently posted using 2 of the Beta 12s w/a Marshall tube head and is liking it for a more vintage-y but punchy sound. So that's one option: reload one of your ACC 4-12 cabs. But keep the old drivers safe and dry in case you ever want to go back to them.
 
#20
dhsierra1 said:
those are definitely old cabs and from what I know of them they're better suited to guitar. No idea of efficiency. They're liked by some of the stoner/doom people, though, but you still need some low end somehow.

If it were me I'd look to drop in some modern efficient bass drivers into 4-10, 2-15 or 4-12. I'd look at Eminence Beta 12s (old school and affordable, nice drivers) or Basslite S2012s or perhaps DeltaLite 2512-IIs (both neo's, if you've the coin).

A couple of guys here, again JohnK_10 and Clammy have 4-12s loaded like that and love 'em. Someone else recently posted using 2 of the Beta 12s w/a Marshall tube head and is liking it for a more vintage-y but punchy sound. So that's one option: reload one of your ACC 4-12 cabs. But keep the old drivers safe and dry in case you ever want to go back to them.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I might have to look into those speakers. I've got no problem switching some speakers out to try some different sounds. The cabinets themselves are wonderful, and the bigger 105 which measures 36Hx30Wx15D is a monster. I'll try out the stock speakers and see how they hold up, and then focus perhaps on different speakers.
 

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