super low freq

[Dougie44]

Thanks.. I have not heard that one yet...
4 string bass low e is 40hz.. so theoretically I can get to 10hz 2 octaves down... It's all about the clean and natural part... I like clean earthquakes...

No one will hear it, below 20hertz you might feel it but won’t hear it. The speaker will just be breathing hard with a sound we can’t hear so why do you want to go there?

 

[Honch]

And how do you know you can't perceive below 20hz?... says who? Heck have you ever heard 20hz?

Yes, on headphones it's a piece of cake. My DAW Audition, can produce sine waves like that and below, my cans are AKG K701 and RME soundcard. When ramping the sampling frequency up to max, the AKG K701 has:


Max. Input Power 200 mW
Audio frequency bandwidth 10 - 39800 Hz -+ 6db
Sensitivity headphones 105 dB SPL/V
Rated Impedance 62 Ohms

No, I couldn't hear anything above 13 Khz when I bought them, some years back, but definitely 20 Hz loud and clear, clean. The only thing it vibrated was my ear drum. And I couldn't have any other frequencies going on at the same time, because that would make me deaf. Below 20 Hz? I tried 15 Hz, couldn't hear a thang, but if I took off the headphones and put a finger on the diaphragm of the speaker I could sense it protruding out and vibrate...when the note was on. So, yes, in a sort of way, felt it...

Used for film explosions, earthquake impersonations? Oh yes, of course.
Any musically use? Absolutely not.

I've heard it ONCE live in a church where the pipes of the organ where able to produce 17 Hz. You had to sit far back in the church and the note produced caused the rest of the notes to have a huge tremolo like effect (amplitude variation) because the rest of the frequencies became undulated, in the air. I e it sounded like you stood next to a ceiling fan with doppler effects on the rest of the notes. The 17 Hz was so loud, that it only could be felt, alone, when played solo. It was more fan like than anything else. Together with other "chords" on the pipe organ it just overpowered the others by knocking them away from the airwaves. I e totally useless IMHO.

And I challenge you if you can hear any difference between 20 Hz and 22 Hz yourself, or even any difference below that, like 17 Hz and 19 Hz. You have to make clear that that low notes only makes you hear distinct wow/flutter between the peaks and valleys. 17 Hz sound just like a vibrato or amplitude tremolo, it's not a steady clear note. Just vibrations. Because the frequency per second is so slow that you detect the spaces as a clear tremolo thing instead. This is if we're just talking about fundamentals only.

Are you looking for that elusive brown note or what?

 

[Coolhandjjl]

Not to put a damper on things (yuk yuk yuk) but Bag End is playing very fast and loose with their specs. I took a look at the double 18 version of this cab ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]), which would be able to go just as deep and maybe deeper than a single 18. The sensitivity specs tell the entire story:

Half Space @ 1 Meter
10 Hz - 96 dBSPL
20 Hz - 108 dBSPL
40 Hz - 124 dBSPL
80 Hz - 130 dBSPL

So at 10 Hz it is 34db down from it's highest sensitivity rating at 80 hz. Simple math shows this is simply not 8hz-95hz +/- 3db (which they also list on the same spec sheet). This is 10hz-80hz +/- 34 db. In other words it is over 11x quieter at those low frequencies than it is at 80 hz. I'm afraid this cab cannot reproduce those frequencies despite their wild frequency response claims. They are false. Shame on Bag End. They have, apparently, let their marketing department specify what gets listed in the specs.

All is not lost though: What we typically think of as the note we hear is actually the second harmonic. 40 Hz sounds REALLY low and deep if you can get it at full volume. So I would search for ways to get that first harmonic at 40 hz out clearly and see how that sounds. Usually subwoofers have a hard time getting notes out even at that frequency, so if this one can get a clean 40 Hz tone out you will probably be more than satisfied. Start there. You're just never going to get 8hz out of this or any other cab this size.

Tom

Given the truth of it all, even if one could hear at 10Hz, one would probably not even be able to notice it at such a loss of dB compared to the level of the rest of the music.

 

[Honch]

 

[Honch]

Anything below 20 Hz will probably sound more like this:

 

[Honch]

You'd be better off on stage with a tap send and you stand with such good headphones on your head all of the time. Then you can turn those low frequencies up as much as you like for your own karma and feeling good, and not interrupt anything else that's going on with the music. Those headphones are - by far - both the cheapest and best way to achieve the goal you want. They can replicate such low frequencies, but make sure the crossover is set that you only produce the fundamentals and sine waves of the frequency otherwise you'll be deaf within seconds. It's the cheapest way, and yes, they will fit in the van.

Otherwise you'd be better off by buying a cheap table desktop fan and put it behind your legs, just to see your trousers flapping. It will produce the same amount of moving air. Really. It's NOT a joke. Why do they produce that rotating subwoofer above, then? It's just moving air, like the wind, or with a fan waving in front of you...

That's the only thing you will ever feel. We're not kidding around here. Below a certain frequency - we're talking about fundamentals only - it just starts to act like a fan. Period.

 

[PaulReside]

In this vid you'll find a run down of Phil Lesh'e bass rig, Mike Gordon has copied it almost exactly. You don't need a peddle board you need good speakers, which you have, and a whole lot of good clean power. Combine that with a HPF (high pass filter) I know it sounds counter intuitive but by trimming out the very lowest freq. the perceived effect will be powerful explosive bass, BOMBS if you will. Full range round wound strings make it easier but are not a must. I use flat wounds and can drop some seriously earthshaking bombs.

 

[Omega Monkey]

Easiest/best way to do it would be some sort of synth (laptop plugins would work too) and a set of MIDI bass pedals (ie the Roland PK-5). You can use the pedals for all kinds of fun stuff actually. For a while, I was using Halion which is the sample player included with cubase, and it has 8 assignable "buttons" that you can assign chords to, and assign which key will trigger them. So I had a sort of mellotron-esque string sound set up with these complex chords for one section of a song, and I just set them up sequentially for each key. Worked pretty well.

 

[Bassamatic]

Bear in mind that the sensitivity of the ear drops significantly as the frequency goes down, to so you will need to pump up the super lows by at least 10-20 dB just to be heard the same as other bass notes - that is going to take a boatload of Watts and cone excursion.

The only speakers I have heard that did this well were from Cerwin-Vega = the 24" Strokers and of course, the famous EarthQuake horns used for the movie many years ago that literally shook the theaters. The ending bars of Emerson, Lake and Palmer's "Lucky Man" has some REAL 16-20 Hz synth bass and C-V used it for demo for years. Once they shook a chandelier out of the ceiling in the demo room! I am sure that most people don't even know that the low bass is even there as most systems will not reproduce it. The demos were quite exciting - feeling extreme low bass at those levels.

For generating the sub-harmonics, I am not sure why the pedals sound raspy - it is not so difficult to do compared to other effects. There are sound processors that do it well from dbx and Audio Control - every disco and night club has one, right?

 

[trevcda]

Not to put a damper on things (yuk yuk yuk) but Bag End is playing very fast and loose with their specs. I took a look at the double 18 version of this cab ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]), which would be able to go just as deep and maybe deeper than a single 18. The sensitivity specs tell the entire story:

Half Space @ 1 Meter
10 Hz - 96 dBSPL
20 Hz - 108 dBSPL
40 Hz - 124 dBSPL
80 Hz - 130 dBSPL

So at 10 Hz it is 34db down from it's highest sensitivity rating at 80 hz. Simple math shows this is simply not 8hz-95hz +/- 3db (which they also list on the same spec sheet). This is 10hz-80hz +/- 34 db. In other words it is over 11x quieter at those low frequencies than it is at 80 hz. I'm afraid this cab cannot reproduce those frequencies despite their wild frequency response claims. They are false. Shame on Bag End. They have, apparently, let their marketing department specify what gets listed in the specs.

All is not lost though: What we typically think of as the note we hear is actually the second harmonic. 40 Hz sounds REALLY low and deep if you can get it at full volume. So I would search for ways to get that first harmonic at 40 hz out clearly and see how that sounds. Usually subwoofers have a hard time getting notes out even at that frequency, so if this one can get a clean 40 Hz tone out you will probably be more than satisfied. Start there. You're just never going to get 8hz out of this or any other cab this size.

Tom

Are your extrapolated specs derived with function of the Integrator in the equation? A little light reading: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] . The way I understand it, the integrator, or whatever circuit they're using these days, takes the predictable drop off of a speakers output in a known enclosure volume and basically reverses it to compensate for that drop off, ending up with a somewhat flatter response. Just another piece of the puzzle and why I recommended taking it easy at first. Integrator or not, you're still asking a lot of the driver.

 

[Volunteerk9]

What will it sound/feel like? I don't know.. but I want to know..

Hell....I want to know. Video or it didnt happen though

 

[Blankandson]

+1 on pipe organs. A church in Nashville years ago put on a musical that had an earthquake. I'm thinking Elijah or something in that genre. Anyway the organist literally stood on the pedal going to the 32' pipe, which slowly began to get louder and louder. It finally was shaking the entire room, lights fixtures, etc. It wasn't so loud but man it just shook everything. When it stopped you could have heard a pin drop.
Which gets me to why I'm writing this. I went to see Pink Floyd back in the 90s on their Pulse Tour. I was ready for the low bass on "We don't need no education . . . boom!" Well, it wasn't very loud. The second time they hit that note I was paying attention. Just before the bass punches it, everyone was quiet for maybe 5 or 6 seconds. So maybe a good way to get that low note is to isolate it in the song. Everyone drops out at the same time, then hit it. I think that is how Floyd did it live. Anyway it wasn't loud like on the recording.

 

[Jazz Ad]

The best way to get low freq bombs is to cut all highs from your tone the moment you do it and bang the lowest string.
That's how I do it anyway. It helps to have a filter available, like a wah for example to remove all highs when needed. I also use a detuner to tune my E to C on the 4 stringer.
You don't need super low frequencies, it's a contrast thing. The effect is as efficient as the difference between your bomb and what came before.

 

[Ric5]

If you read my post again, you will see I'm not asking about money, I am asking about sound.. how does one create a clean fundamental below 31 (low b)... Every sub octave I have heard is not clean.. a bit gritty or robotic..


Do you know what processor will accomplish this? Have you tried it?

tune your bass F#BEAD

 

[mdeguzman1]

Use a Moog Taurus or keyboard.

 

[davidl13]

So far, the most earth moving lows I have achieved, is with an Alembic super filter sf-2...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

And the walls did shake..., right side low pass filter with gain at 10 set to 45hz and dampening wide open... it is big... I think if I can do the same with an octave and 2nd octave below, I imagine it will sound different, and depending on when I run out of watts or excursion from the bag ends, I will perceive it as feeling different... and I think I will need an eq where I can push 10-20hz up a few dB to compensate... watts and excursion will limit my volume...

That is my hypothesis...

As for a video, I don’t own a microphone that can pickup frequency that low.., I have a test mic that goes that to 20hz, and even if I did, who the heck can play it back... so this is a live experience kind of thing... no other way to experience it... which is kind of the beauty of it all

If it works... and my mind is blown... well, you will have to come over...

I must leave town a few days... I will work on this next week ...

Thanks for all your input...

 

[Jack Wilcox]

OP,

I know there's a lot of information in this thread, but you're getting into a range of sound where pro audio and psychoacoustics collide. Here's the takeaway you need to remember:

Hz is a function of cycles per second. Below a certain threshold (normally 20hz), our brains cease interpreting the information as tones and begin recognizing a rhythmic pulse - the fan effect described above.

Bass guitar is inherently unable to produce sustained fundamentals below a certain point, but that particular point depends on the bass. Regardless, you will never produce a sustained 40hz wave from a low E string, much less ~32hz from a B string. It just won't happen.

Your best bet for producing ultra low freqs would be the following:

Piccolo Strings (increased fundamental vs bass strings)
HPF(80hz)
compressor
Sub n' Up octaver (-1 only)
DBX 120A (-1-2)
Another compressor
LPF(~60hz)
31 Band w/ shelving


this rig would do the trick.... or just buy a moog/vst+interface.

 

[davidl13]

OP,

I know there's a lot of information in this thread, but you're getting into a range of sound where pro audio and psychoacoustics collide. Here's the takeaway you need to remember:

Hz is a function of cycles per second. Below a certain threshold (normally 20hz), our brains cease interpreting the information as tones and begin recognizing a rhythmic pulse - the fan effect described above.

Bass guitar is inherently unable to produce sustained fundamentals below a certain point, but that particular point depends on the bass. Regardless, you will never produce a sustained 40hz wave from a low E string, much less ~32hz from a B string. It just won't happen.

Your best bet for producing ultra low freqs would be the following:

Piccolo Strings (increased fundamental vs bass strings)
HPF(80hz)
compressor
Sub n' Up octaver (-1 only)
DBX 120A (-1-2)
Another compressor
LPF(~60hz)
31 Band w/ shelving


this rig would do the trick.... or just buy a moog/vst+interface.

I am hearing you... that is until you get so low you just moving wind... just kidding...

A rack mount compressor is on the way...

Why only -1 on the sub n up? And -2 on the 120A?

The Alembic sf-2is the low pass filter

What would you recommend for an eq?

Thanks
David

 

[BunchyMutt]

clarifying question: are you looking for something that is always on or something you can activate for a few notes as an effect?

 

[Jack Wilcox]

I am hearing you... that is until you get so low you just moving wind... just kidding...

A rack mount compressor is on the way...

Why only -1 on the sub n up? And -2 on the 120A?

The Alembic sf-2is the low pass filter

What would you recommend for an eq?

Thanks
David

the TCE's -1 has much higher fidelity and is infinitely more clean than -2. Further, the Sub n' Up can be configure for low-latency polyphony with dynamics, while the DBX 120 series is locked in pseudopolyphony. Further the 120 series offers options for -1, -2, or -1+-2 octaves down. It is not concerned with musicality as much as "make signal lower,"
and is thus very clean in that regard.

These effects are synthesizers in the sense that they generate previously non-extant information. Each time you introduce another variable (read: another synth/effect), you will lose a certain degree of dynamic fidelity. The amount of this reduction will fluctuate depending on the equipment used, but subsynths are notorious for reducing dynamics. It happens to guitarists all the time with their massive boards.

Again, by the time that all this equipment is utilized, your noise floor is going to be horrific and dynamics will be virtually nonexistent.Once you begin dropping 2+ octaves, pythagorean fifth discrepencies will make everything sound terrible and out of tune. Seriously consider purchasing a proper synthesizer if you want to play this low.

Artists who frequently utilize information below ~40hz (namely bassnectar) almost exclusively use 'simple' melodic lines that low. There are no basslines in this region, just background drones while everything else plays on top.

Can you provide some examples of the kind of music you will be playing? Or some kind of reference material?