"Superwood"

[13ghosts]

I've just stumbled across some news on "Superwood"... Sounds interesting, especially for fretboards!

Superwood is said to have up to 50 percent higher tensile strength and a strength-to-weight ratio that is 10 times better than steel. Here is a link to the company: InventWood

There's another company from Switzerland with a similar product: Greentech for Musical Instruments | Swiss Wood Solutions

Do any of you already have experience with this?

 

[ardgedee]

There's an existing discussion thread about manufactured woods and wood substitutes, it will be worth bringing them up there so that the people interested in the topic will get notified. Rocklite: The Latest Synthetic Ebony For Fingerboards

 

[rudy4444]

I've just stumbled across some news on "Superwood"... Sounds interesting, especially for fretboards!

Superwood is said to have up to 50 percent higher tensile strength and a strength-to-weight ratio that is 10 times better than steel. Here is a link to the company: InventWood

There's another company from Switzerland with a similar product: Greentech for Musical Instruments | Swiss Wood Solutions

Do any of you already have experience with this?

The actual process is described in the linked Scientific American quote, but since it was published in February 2018 I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing it anytime soon.

 

[Peter Wood]

I've just stumbled across some news on "Superwood"... Sounds interesting, especially for fretboards!

Superwood is said to have up to 50 percent higher tensile strength and a strength-to-weight ratio that is 10 times better than steel. Here is a link to the company: InventWood

There's another company from Switzerland with a similar product: Greentech for Musical Instruments | Swiss Wood Solutions

Do any of you already have experience with this?

[How do tell them it's me?]

 

[TonH]

In 2012 I did an experiment with Acetylated wood :

Thread 'Experiment with acetylated wood (Accoya)'

Dec 26, 2012

This is a build to experiment with acetylated wood.

Accoya wood is normal wood that because of acetylation (a wood modification process with a strong vinegar) hardly absorbs any moisture anymore in the cell walls of its wood structure. This has improved dramatically it’s durability against rot, mold and insects etc. It is also the best dimensional stable wood in the world (will hardly warp, crack, etc.).

For more information see: Invalid Link Removed

It is interesting to find out what the chemical process will do with the sound. Therefore, this experiment with Accoya...

• TonH
• Replies: 38
• Forum: Luthier's Corner

I don't know how the proces that is used to create sonowood or that is similar to acetylated wood.

 

[SuperTheBass]

I'm sure this stuff is going to have a bunch of great uses, but you're never gonna catch me playing a bass made from artificial wood.

 

[PiquetBass]

I'm sure this stuff is going to have a bunch of great uses, but you're never gonna catch me playing a bass made from artificial wood.

Or one with a carbon neck?

 

[micguy]

A lot of things tout themselves as "stronger than steel" - especially on a pound for pound basis. Steel was never really all that good at strength to weight ratio - many things are better than steel on that basis. What steel is good at is strength for the dollar - it's a relatively cheap material for structural uses.

Probably the toughest cellulose stuff I'm aware of is that new high density bamboo stuff - used as flooring, it's made from bamboo fibers glued together, but it is compressed to something like 3x the density of normal bamboo - 3 x the fibers means 3 times the stiffness and strength, albeit at 3 times the weight.

Wood's super power is that it's fairly strong and not very heavy. The lightest stuff that cars are made from (carbon fiber) is about 3 times the density of maple. If you look up densities in the periodic table, there are no metals that are in the same density range as wood; save lithium, which is not at all stable around water. Wood is pretty much alone in it's class, so replacing it in applications where it's ideal is not really practical. and it comes in a wide enough variety that you can find ideal species for a lot of different applications.

The stiffness and strongest woods are usually the most dense - cellulose has a certain stiffness and strength, you get more of that if you pack the fibers in tighter (like the bamboo stuff). If, however, you have space for a bigger cross section (like on a horizontal beam, using less dens wood, but a taller stack of is gets you more stiffness and strength using the less dense stuff on a pound for pound basis. Mechanical Engineering is not about finding one "best material" and using that everywhere - no material is best for every use.

 

[turf3]

Well, tensile strength is a meaningless characteristic in this context. The characterstics that matter for a stringed instrument fingerboard are stiffness (modulus of elasticity; Young's modulus) and hardness. And of course any material that's anisotropic (different characteristics in different directions, like wood or most fiber reinforced plastics) you have to consider these characteristics in multiple directions. Wood, for example, is a lot harder and stiffer along the grain than across the grain tangentiallly to the rings, and a lot harder and stiffer across the grain tangentially than radially.

When I see someone touting tensile strength for a material in an application where it will NEVER be stressed to failure, I immediately know it's advertising not engineering. I just looked at the link - all puffery, not a single piece of data.

 

[SuperTheBass]

Or one with a carbon neck?

Yeah that too

 

[turf3]

Or one with a carbon neck?

Do you mean carbon, or carbon fiber reinforced plastic?

 

[turf3]

I'm sure this stuff is going to have a bunch of great uses, but you're never gonna catch me playing a bass made from artificial wood.

Why?

Do you think wooden wheels would be superior to steel ones on automobiles? Had you rather have a partial denture made out of wood like George Washington's, or the latest in dental resins?

And how far will you go? Is laminated wood OK? You know, it doesn't grow that way in trees. Pickguards on modern instruments are derived from pickguards that were originally made from thin sheets of wood - are you OK with plastic pickguards rather than wooden ones, and if so, why are you OK with a plastic pickguard and not a plastic neck or fingerboard/fretboard? Today's metal tuning machines are derived from wooden tuning pegs? Shouldn't you insist on your electric bass being fitted with wooden pegs?

 

[SuperTheBass]

I hardly think pickguard material vs. Neck material is an apples to apples comparison.

I don't have any deep philosophical reason why I wouldn't want to play an artificial wood bass, I just find it hard to believe it would feel and sound like real wood. Or if it did, it would probably be too expensive to make an instrument out of. If I played a bass and loved it and later found out it was fake wood I wouldn't throw it away or anything. I just wouldn't be going out of my way to try it because I would have low expectations for it.

 

[ardgedee]

Not sure what you mean by artificial wood. There are a lot of different wood composites available, and then there are carbon fiber necks, and I can't think of anybody making something that looks like wood without any wood in it. Like @micguy says, wood is just too cheap and good a material to want to disregard it entirely.

Engineering a good bass neck is a surprisingly difficult problem, and the difference between a bad and a good one usually amounts to which compromises the designer settled on. If processed wood can mean fewer compromises then maybe it's worth trying.

 

[micguy]

That's a bit like me thinking, "Where did I leave my %$#&@ cellphone NOW?!!" and then realizing that it's in my hand.

There are a lot of different wood composites available, and then there are carbon fiber necks, and I can't think of anybody making something that looks like wood without any wood in it. Like @micguy says, wood is just too cheap and good a material to want to disregard it entirely.

There have been fake wood materials that looked pretty much like wood - there was a dense foam that someone was making cases our of - they used sandblasted plywood (which has a lot of very visible grain structure) as the surface of the mold they made the stuff in, and with the right paint, it looked a lot like wood. Trouble is, it moved with humidity and such - it was too much like wood in some respects. I haven't seen that stuff recently, but they still make faux wood beams and molding that you can buy in home improvement stores.

Oh, and "luxury vinyl plank" and some of the faux wood ceramic tiles - there'a a bunch of folks making stuff that looks like wood that isn't wood nowadays.

 

[SuperTheBass]

There have been fake wood materials that looked pretty much like wood - there was a dense foam that someone was making cases our of - they used sandblasted plywood (which has a lot of very visible grain structure) as the surface of the mold they made the stuff in, and with the right paint, it looked a lot like wood. Trouble is, it moved with humidity and such - it was too much like wood in some respects. I haven't seen that stuff recently, but they still make faux wood beams and molding that you can buy in home improvement stores.

This is what I meant by artificial wood.

I'm sure there are some advanced composite materials that have some advantages in constructing instruments, but I'm an engineer who works in manufacturing and I'm fairly confident that any decisions regarding the use of those materials will be made by larger manufacturers as a purely cost cutting measure. That's the source of my cynicism.

To give a more nuanced reply: the main benefit would be consistency, rather than peak performance I think. A carefully chosen piece of wood is probably still going to be the ideal material for the job. For manufacturers who don't have access to a big enough supply of "good" pieces of wood, or who wants to save money on the material screening process, artificial/composite materials make sense. For high end builders who are carefully picking individual pieces of wood anyway, I don't think it makes much of a difference.

Kind of like a PLEK machine. Great for mass produced instruments, probably marginal benefit for high end builders who have pros doing fret work anyway.

 

[ardgedee]

There have been fake wood materials that looked pretty much like wood - there was a dense foam that someone was making cases our of - they used sandblasted plywood (which has a lot of very visible grain structure) as the surface of the mold they made the stuff in, and with the right paint, it looked a lot like wood. Trouble is, it moved with humidity and such - it was too much like wood in some respects. I haven't seen that stuff recently, but they still make faux wood beams and molding that you can buy in home improvement stores.

Oh, and "luxury vinyl plank" and some of the faux wood ceramic tiles - there'a a bunch of folks making stuff that looks like wood that isn't wood nowadays.

Yeah, I've seen stuff like that but I was thinking of the specific use case of instrument building -- the examples I've seen wouldn't be particularly useful for that, either they're too dense or they'd be unlikely to bear the load of a set of tuned bass strings when cut to a conventional neck shape.

 

[KJMO]

My Martin acoustic guitar has a Richlite fingerboard, and it’s awesome. I wouldn’t mind it on any instrument. It feels and looks great.

 

[CryingBass]

I agree on the bamboo thing. I have a 6' wide standing desk in bamboo. Rock solid, only 1/2 thick. And very sustainable. I also have a Rack made of bamboo.

Not to derail - but has anyone made bamboo necks before that worked out ok?

Also this thread reminded my that "structural beams" made out of wood with some type of binder are also super strong.

Wood Ears

 

[Fender_Bender]

A lot of things tout themselves as "stronger than steel" - especially on a pound for pound basis. Steel was never really all that good at strength to weight ratio - many things are better than steel on that basis. What steel is good at is strength for the dollar - it's a relatively cheap material for structural uses.

Probably the toughest cellulose stuff I'm aware of is that new high density bamboo stuff - used as flooring, it's made from bamboo fibers glued together, but it is compressed to something like 3x the density of normal bamboo - 3 x the fibers means 3 times the stiffness and strength, albeit at 3 times the weight.

Wood's super power is that it's fairly strong and not very heavy. The lightest stuff that cars are made from (carbon fiber) is about 3 times the density of maple. If you look up densities in the periodic table, there are no metals that are in the same density range as wood; save lithium, which is not at all stable around water. Wood is pretty much alone in it's class, so replacing it in applications where it's ideal is not really practical. and it comes in a wide enough variety that you can find ideal species for a lot of different applications.

The stiffness and strongest woods are usually the most dense - cellulose has a certain stiffness and strength, you get more of that if you pack the fibers in tighter (like the bamboo stuff). If, however, you have space for a bigger cross section (like on a horizontal beam, using less dens wood, but a taller stack of is gets you more stiffness and strength using the less dense stuff on a pound for pound basis. Mechanical Engineering is not about finding one "best material" and using that everywhere - no material is best for every use.

That’s one of the reasons why I do not recommend people use bamboo cutting boards. Between the density and silica impregnated in it, it is much harder on knife edges than plain old wood. The cats meow’s of cutting boards now are coming out of Japan and made of a type of self healing rubber to prolong edge life.