Double Bass Swing Feel & Science

[jamro217]

Let's be clear, science is not a thing, it is a means of testing and figuring out our surroundings. Science has proven that objects fall at a rate of thirty two feet per second per second and water (at sea level) boils at two hundred and twelve degrees fahrenheit. This was accomplished by anyone with the appropriate equipment willing to test the theories out and prove them to be true. Once you try to expand beyond what is provable and rely on probability all is lost. For example, the Tampa Bay Lightning easily led the league in wins and points during the regular season and were favored to win the Stanley Cup. No one predicted the Columbus Blue Jackets to beat them, much less sweep the series in four games. Had this probability been used to "prove" a theory, we'd all be suffering the consequences. Rhythms consist of the duration of played notes as well as the accents placed on them. If you play a straight rhythm with subtle accents in the right place it sounds like it swings more than if all notes were the same volume. The ears can be tricked. Knowing that makes assessing the cause of swing virtually a fool's errand.

 

[lowphatbass]

.......

...... that makes assessing the cause of swing virtually a fool's errand.

So “swing” is like pornography then.....Difficult to describe but you know it when you see(hear) it?

I’m ok with that.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

So “swing” is like pornography then.....Difficult to describe but you know it when you see(hear) it?

I’m ok with that.

Nooo, love....

 

[matthewbrown]

Let's be clear, science is not a thing, it is a means of testing and figuring out our surroundings. Science has proven that objects fall at a rate of thirty two feet per second per second and water (at sea level) boils at two hundred and twelve degrees fahrenheit. This was accomplished by anyone with the appropriate equipment willing to test the theories out and prove them to be true. Once you try to expand beyond what is provable and rely on probability all is lost. For example, the Tampa Bay Lightning easily led the league in wins and points during the regular season and were favored to win the Stanley Cup. No one predicted the Columbus Blue Jackets to beat them, much less sweep the series in four games. Had this probability been used to "prove" a theory, we'd all be suffering the consequences. Rhythms consist of the duration of played notes as well as the accents placed on them. If you play a straight rhythm with subtle accents in the right place it sounds like it swings more than if all notes were the same volume. The ears can be tricked. Knowing that makes assessing the cause of swing virtually a fool's errand.

I think that research can illuminate not only how we can understand how musicians create different swing feels, and also how they are perceived. That's where the "tricking of the ears" is involved. But I'm a psychology teacher, so I guess that stands to reason. That said, there's an enormous amount of variation in performances, as anyone who has studied the psychology of music knows. And there's not been much research, really.

 

[jamro217]

I think that research can illuminate not only how we can understand how musicians create different swing feels, and also how they are perceived. That's where the "tricking of the ears" is involved. But I'm a psychology teacher, so I guess that stands to reason. That said, there's an enormous amount of variation in performances, as anyone who has studied the psychology of music knows. And there's not been much research, really.

I think the problem is that although the researchers start out with good intentions, once the song starts they start boppin' along with it and before long they forgot what they were doing. They're dancing around the lab, playing air trumpet and making bass faces. When they realize what's happened they start over, only to recreate the results of the first test. Lots of fun, no hard data.

 

[Wasnex]

I think the problem is that although the researchers start out with good intentions, once the song starts they start boppin' along with it and before long they forgot what they were doing. They're dancing around the lab, playing air trumpet and making bass faces. When they realize what's happened they start over, only to recreate the results of the first test. Lots of fun, no hard data.

I don't think there is really all that much of a range of research that can or should be done. All of the music-related research I have seen has been on stuff such a pitch perception and the effects of latency/time delay. IMHO "feel" falls into the second category. AFAIK 10mS is about the threshold where it start making a difference. FYI that's about how much delay occurs when sound travels 10'.

Something to keep in mind is feel is not constant across an ensemble because it takes time for sound to travel a given distance. Feel is created by the tension between at least two time sources, for example a reference and your internal time. I think most people consider the drums/cymbals to be the reference, but members of the ensemble are spaced at varying distances from the drums and then expected to play in perfect time with one another. A sax section in a big band for example will try to play in time with itself, while trying to maintain a given amount of tension with the reference set by the drums.

The part that makes it really complicated is the drummer is listening and responding. So if the saxes stretch the pocket too far, it will be very difficult for the drummer to avoid speeding up or slowing down. The drummer and sax section have to agree with the amount of tension that will be created, and this is complicated by the propagation delay between them, which goes both ways. In other words, if two people are 10' apart there is 20mS of total propagation delay.

To make matters worse, each section is at a different location and each section will typically have a slightly different idea of how much tension is required to form the desired pocket. Of course another pocket is formed between the bass and drums. When you think about all of the pockets, and all of the different rates of propagation delay, you see that it's actually amazingly complicated for an ensemble to play together in a way that creates a nice stable feel. It's a bit disappointing how many people think it should be easy to play a deep groove with a lot of tension in the pocket. IMHO the more tension in the pocket, the harder it becomes, because the errors from interpretation and propagation delay become more important.

IMHO most people are not all the comfortable with different levels of tension in a swing feel. We tend to learn a few and lock them in. This can make it challenging for people with different influences to groove together.

 

[matthewbrown]

I don't think there is really all that much of a range of research that can or should be done. All of the music-related research I have seen has been on stuff such a pitch perception and the effects of latency/time delay. IMHO "feel" falls into the second category. AFAIK 10mS is about the threshold where it start making a difference. FYI that's about how much delay occurs when sound travels 10'.

Something to keep in mind is feel is not constant across an ensemble because it takes time for sound to travel a given distance. Feel is created by the tension between at least two time sources, for example a reference and your internal time. I think most people consider the drums/cymbals to be the reference, but members of the ensemble are spaced at varying distances from the drums and then expected to play in perfect time with one another. A sax section in a big band for example will try to play in time with itself, while trying to maintain a given amount of tension with the reference set by the drums.

The part that makes it really complicated is the drummer is listening and responding. So if the saxes stretch the pocket too far, it will be very difficult for the drummer to avoid speeding up or slowing down. The drummer and sax section have to agree with the amount of tension that will be created, and this is complicated by the propagation delay between them, which goes both ways. In other words, if two people are 10' apart there is 20mS of total propagation delay.

To make matters worse, each section is at a different location and each section will typically have a slightly different idea of how much tension is required to form the desired pocket. Of course another pocket is formed between the bass and drums. When you think about all of the pockets, and all of the different rates of propagation delay, you see that it's actually amazingly complicated for an ensemble to play together in a way that creates a nice stable feel. It's a bit disappointing how many people think it should be easy to play a deep groove with a lot of tension in the pocket. IMHO the more tension in the pocket, the harder it becomes, because the errors from interpretation and propagation delay become more important.

IMHO most people are not all the comfortable with different levels of tension in a swing feel. We tend to learn a few and lock them in. This can make it challenging for people with different influences to groove together.

Well said. And I'd add that I have never heard a large orchestra swing convincingly, for these reasons and more. Big bands, yes, but orchestras, no.

 

[notabene]

In the earlier days of computer-notation midi playback, the degree of "swing" in 8th notes was adjustable in milli seconds. I found it fascinating how a millesecond or two made a big difference in "feel". And the best feel (subjective) changed greatly with even small tempo changes. Made me believe that, like playing in tune, "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

 

[BarfanyShart]

I was always told to practice with the metronome representing beats 2 and 4, the idea being that playing to the back beat will help you swing.

 

[Wasnex]

I was always told to practice with the metronome representing beats 2 and 4, the idea being that playing to the back beat will help you swing.

Yes, but in the context of swing the back beat can be in an infinite number of places. The idea is swing is not about placing the triplets exactly where they belong, it's about setting up a feel where you consistently play in the cracks. Then as you get more advanced, you can play around with time in a continuous manner. This is called back phrasing. It takes quite a bit of skill and good instincts to be able to back phrase in a way that sounds musical without degrading the feel of the song, which should remain relatively constant in most circumstances.

 

[matthewbrown]

Yes, but in the context of swing the back beat can be in an infinite number of places. The idea is swing is not about placing the triplets exactly where they belong, it's about setting up a feel where you consistently play in the cracks. Then as you get more advanced, you can play around with time in a continuous manner. This is called back phrasing. It takes quite a bit of skill and good instincts to be able to back phrase in a way that sounds musical without degrading the feel of the song, which should remain relatively constant in most circumstances.

Ed Friedland (aka the Bass Whisperer) taught me for awhile, and one thing he favored was to play with a metronome and practice playing ahead and behind the beat by different amounts of time. That was a very hard exercise! It did give me a better sense of what it means to place the beat in different relationship to the pocket, and it definitely influenced by approach to swing. I did not get as far with it as I should, so I keep returning to it.

 

[Bruce Calin]

It is frustrating in the big band context when the different sections may feel the groove differently but will not even attempt to sync with the rhythm section. It can get to be a power struggle with no winner. You would think that the rhythm section would be the reference but that is often not the case. I worked with a great drummer who would go ballistic when the other sections would not play with us because they weren't listening. We would get the blame for the groove not happening when it was actually a case of sectional power struggles, which is the main reason why big band playing can be so unfulfilling. IMO distance and other space issues can be resolved if people will listen and be flexible.

 

[jamro217]

I don't think there is really all that much of a range of research that can or should be done. All of the music-related research I have seen has been on stuff such a pitch perception and the effects of latency/time delay. IMHO "feel" falls into the second category. AFAIK 10mS is about the threshold where it start making a difference. FYI that's about how much delay occurs when sound travels 10'.

Something to keep in mind is feel is not constant across an ensemble because it takes time for sound to travel a given distance. Feel is created by the tension between at least two time sources, for example a reference and your internal time. I think most people consider the drums/cymbals to be the reference, but members of the ensemble are spaced at varying distances from the drums and then expected to play in perfect time with one another. A sax section in a big band for example will try to play in time with itself, while trying to maintain a given amount of tension with the reference set by the drums.

The part that makes it really complicated is the drummer is listening and responding. So if the saxes stretch the pocket too far, it will be very difficult for the drummer to avoid speeding up or slowing down. The drummer and sax section have to agree with the amount of tension that will be created, and this is complicated by the propagation delay between them, which goes both ways. In other words, if two people are 10' apart there is 20mS of total propagation delay.

To make matters worse, each section is at a different location and each section will typically have a slightly different idea of how much tension is required to form the desired pocket. Of course another pocket is formed between the bass and drums. When you think about all of the pockets, and all of the different rates of propagation delay, you see that it's actually amazingly complicated for an ensemble to play together in a way that creates a nice stable feel. It's a bit disappointing how many people think it should be easy to play a deep groove with a lot of tension in the pocket. IMHO the more tension in the pocket, the harder it becomes, because the errors from interpretation and propagation delay become more important.

IMHO most people are not all the comfortable with different levels of tension in a swing feel. We tend to learn a few and lock them in. This can make it challenging for people with different influences to groove together.

Very well said. The distinction between a band that is swinging and one that just plain stinks can be attributed by the degree of time separation between instruments. If the time is absolutely perfect, the band sounds robotic. This is why some people hate drum machines. If the band has the right combination of perfect and subtle time differences, they appear to swing; if the differences are too drastic, they sound like Rainy Day Women #12 + 35. Now the problem of talent enters into the mix. Is the swinging intended or just a byproduct of hackery? I know this sounds like a joke, but it makes you wonder. On a related note, I've been trying to imitate the sound of a passing parade in the distance that eventually comes around to the front speakers as the intro to a song. The volume and panning from side to side isn't the issue, nor is it the amount of delay in the signal, but rather the correct amount of bass, mid and treble and which of these arrives first. Bass frequencies travel long distances, but do they seem to increase in speed compared to higher frequencies the further they go? Info on this topic is not that easy to find.

 

[Wasnex]

It is frustrating in the big band context when the different sections may feel the groove differently but will not even attempt to sync with the rhythm section. It can get to be a power struggle with no winner. You would think that the rhythm section would be the reference but that is often not the case. I worked with a great drummer who would go ballistic when the other sections would not play with us because they weren't listening. We would get the blame for the groove not happening when it was actually a case of sectional power struggles, which is the main reason why big band playing can be so unfulfilling. IMO distance and other space issues can be resolved if people will listen and be flexible.

In my experience the problem is sometimes a flawed concept of how to play a certain feel. For example, I have played the tune Freckle Face, which has a very relaxed swing feel that makes the song deceptively hard to pull off, in several bands.



It pretty common for the sax and trumpet sections to reference their swing feel to themselves. Conceptually they play each note of the soli sections slightly behind the previous note until it gets so far behind that time totally collapses.

In reality I think what needs to happen is the sections need to back phrase instead of playing a constant feel. Unfortunately back phrasing is a difficult enough skill for one player to master, so getting one or two sections to back phrase together is especially challenging.

 

[Wasnex]

Bass frequencies travel long distances, but do they seem to increase in speed compared to higher frequencies the further they go? Info on this topic is not that easy to find.

Not sure if you are suggesting Doppler shift? IMHO what is more likely is directionality and how far different frequencies are likely to travel. Also whether the sound you hear has traveled directly to your ears or bounced of a building before it being reflected back to your ears (indirect sound).

I believe the indirect sound waves bouncing of the buildings are why marching bands can sound out of time and phase with itself. Keep in mind different instruments have different sound dispersion characteristics. Some shoot the sound up, some shoot the sound forward, some shoot the sound back, and some like the bass drum have some characteristics of dipoles, so they shoot the sound sideways.

 

[damonsmith]

I was always told to practice with the metronome representing beats 2 and 4, the idea being that playing to the back beat will help you swing.

This is commonly taught and incorrect.
1.Metronome on all four beat to instill solid time. Learning the move clearly and easily
2. between 3, 4, 6 & 12 to have to right recipe for swing.

 

[Don Kasper]

and incorrect.

In the words of Dwight Schrute - "False!" It is not "...incorrect."
Those of us who play a lot of quarter-note based walking basslines find that using a metronome on "2 & 4" can be a valuable tool for emulating the drummer's High Hat on 2 & 4 - NOT to accent 2 & 4, but to practice hearing the HH as (one of many) reference points....including the "count-off" at the beginning of a tune. (Esp. with new students of 4/4 based musics.)
And, finding other metronome settings (other than on "all four beats...."), can be very useful as well - for example: beat "4" only, or beat "2" only, can really check your inner-clock vis-a-vis how well you hear, adapt to, & embrace the aggregate "time" in your immediate surroundings.
"All 4 beats.." is like someone still using training wheels on a bike while claiming - "Sure! I can ride a 2 wheeler!".
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thanks.

 

[Guild B301]

I have never heard a large orchestra swing convincingly, for these reasons and more. Big bands, yes, but orchestras, no.

Then, you need to listen to more of The Paul Whitman Orchestra. (My Favorite Band Of All-Time. And I’m a MetalHead!). Listen to his biggest hit:

 

[Wasnex]

In the words of Dwight Schrute - "False!" It is not "...incorrect."
Those of us who play a lot of quarter-note based walking basslines find that using a metronome on "2 & 4" can be a valuable tool for emulating the drummer's High Hat on 2 & 4 - NOT to accent 2 & 4, but to practice hearing the HH as (one of many) reference points....including the "count-off" at the beginning of a tune. (Esp. with new students of 4/4 based musics.)
And, finding other metronome settings (other than on "all four beats...."), can be very useful as well - for example: beat "4" only, or beat "2" only, can really check your inner-clock vis-a-vis how well you hear, adapt to, & embrace the aggregate "time" in your immediate surroundings.
"All 4 beats.." is like someone still using training wheels on a bike while claiming - "Sure! I can ride a 2 wheeler!".
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thanks.

We need to keep in mind that measures are not always symmetrical. By that I mean the spacing between beats 1,2,3,4 are not always even. So whether you practice with the metronome set to 2 & 4 or 1,2,3,4 could be dependent on the specific feel you are working on.

One particular problem with working with a metronome, is a metronome does not respond; so it is much easier to create and maintain a stable degree of rhythmic tension. With a real drummer, each player needs to agree on the amount of rhythmic tension or time will fluctuate.

A lot of players argue that music should breath, but this is often an excuse for bad time. I far prefer when time is stable. Of course, there are many times where the tempo should be purposely varied, but that is another matter.

One possible disconnect is the drummer may perceive that your ictus is in a different place than you are placing it. In my experience this varies with the type of tone you use, how your amp is aimed, and what part of your tone the drummer listens too. The distance between your amp and the drummer, and the volume of your amp are also factors. As I said previously people seem to think it's easy, but there are a myriad of factors at work that add errors to our perceptions rhythmic tension.

I can't speak for others, but I generally prefer to listen to the cymbals over the HH. The cymbals usually have more sub divisions; so there is more accuracy IMHO. Also, not every drummer's HH hits are consistent or accurately placed, so my preference can very from player to player, as well as song to song.

IMHO of course.

 

[ctrlzjones]

Maybe it is helpful to understand that the feeling of swing is not only about the placement of notes within a 4/4 grid of time (as an engineer would approach it). The heritage of how african music deals with polyrythm and the effect for subdividing the 4/4 time is what led to the descriptive term “syncopation” as the biggest marker for this (~1920) “new” kind of music. And those syncopated notes are different from those that the european composers wrote.

But again: placement within the time grid is only one parameter of phrasing with swing.

And as for the threads topic (the science of swing): This is about swing feel, not? Since when are the scientist able to deal with feelings as a physical (measurable) item? All those statistical methods applied to human behaviour are working only so-so, not? Let’s see how the AI research comes up for dealing with swing.