• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Switching to another key; what is the best technique?

About the Number system:

IF it's not music written out in standard notation, i.e., you're working from chord charts or some other less than standard charts, the Number System breaks you of thinking in keys, and for me actually helped me learn the fingerboard better.

You have a chart, and all you really need to know is what key is this tune going to be performed in, then play the chart with that value as your '1'. If you get a different singer, or the one you have wants to try it in B-flat instead of A-flat, you just move the chart a whole step up the fingerboard and play the chart.

This really breaks you of thinking in a few, comfortable keys, and is a method to play the same song anywhere up and down the fingerboard.

Different keys on a keyboard instrument are can be a big difference in technique (those pesky black keys . . . ), so C and C-sharp are very different things.

On a bass guitar of however many strings you use, things only finger differently down at the nut with some open string fingerings, or all the way up at the other end. Otherwise, everything in the biggest part of the fingerboard can finger the same regardless of key.

The Number System seizes on this and simplifies less-than-written-out music a great deal.
This. Learn to play intervals rather than keys because they are all the same. A minor third is always in the same place, relative to the root. A major third is always just a half-step above that. Your four is always in the same place relative to the root, no matter what note your root is.

Because the bass tunes all the way across in even intervals, if you know the song in one key, you can play it in any key by just playing the intervals.
 
This is a difficult thing to teach people because as one of the other responses mentioned, it's just a thing you become able to do after you spend a lot of time playing in an ensemble. But I think I might at least be able to tell you kinda what is going on in my head and hands when I do it. BTW apologies in advance for the length, but this is kind of a deep subject.

When I'm playing bass, what my head is doing is thinking about the sound of the next chord. In my head, I can hear and sing the root (or sometimes whatever is voiced as the bass note), and I can hear enough of it in my head to know a few details, like whether its major or minor, whether it has minor 7 or flat 5. There are obviously oodles of other chord qualities, but if you are aware of at least those details of the chords in the chart, it'll take you pretty far as a bassist.

For the moment though, lets put aside everything but the root. Most of the time when I'm playing, unless I'm actually looking at the chart, I am not consciously aware of the note that I'm playing. I could look down at the neck and tell you what it was, but there is no conscious process of thinking "next, I shall play the Db" and then doing it. Instead, I hear the note that I am playing right now, and I imagine how far away the next root is. This is much easier than it sounds- for example, pretty much anybody can join in on a rendition of "Happy Birthday" even if they have no idea what the starting note was, and it's pretty much always completely random.

Once you can imagine the distance between the pitch you're playing and the pitch you're anticipating, you need to translate that into motion. Again, sometimes people think that this is impossible, but if you can sing happy birthday in a random key in tune, which requires very precise modulation of your vocal chords, you can do it on any other instrument too if you practice enough. In common music, the number of potential intervals between successive chords is not really that large, and especially on a bass there are many tunes where you can play every chord root in a tune with very little shifting in the left hand.

So the real secret to it is, if you are fretting some note with, say, the third finger of your left hand, and you can hear the next root in your head because you've listened to the song a few times and you remember it, what you need to develop through practice is a map in your hands and brain about where the potential next-notes are located. Many styles of music feature common root motion, like the blues, which means as a bassist once you learn where the I, IV, and V are, if you can find the tonic on the fingerboard using your brain and eyes, your fingers can find the IV and V for you. Jazz is the same way except there are way more variations of root motion.

The part that I skipped, the chord-quality stuff, takes longer to develop. It will give you the ability to imagine next-notes that aren't roots, but are related to the chord and help you to take a path which leads you to the next root, rather than just going straight to it. It's how players who don't know a lick of theory can still play incredible walking lines; it turns out they know the harmony but maybe just don't know the names that people have given to aspects of harmony.

Anyway once you've started to develop that intuition about finding next notes, then the key you're playing the song in really doesn't matter. Some keys are harder to play bass in than others, because they can make it difficult to take advantage of open strings, or require a lot of shifting, but most of the time it's just a matter of finding the new tonic and then working out a comfortable place on the neck to home yourself.

I learned this skill by spending decades playing along with records, using trial and error to find each next note. Sometimes it was at a piano, sometimes with a horn, later with the bass, often just sitting playing along with jingles on TV commercials, sometimes harder stuff that required a boatload of rewinding. Today with looping software its way easier to pick phrases, loop them in the headphones, and to just try and fail over and over until you can mimic the line on your instrument. Today I will sometimes write out the notation for stuff I transcribe, but often I don't and I have no idea what the notes are until I do- I just figure out _how_ to play it first and then figure out _what_ I played after.

Anyway apologies for the length, this is kind of a heavy topic I've been meaning to write something about for years, and your question was not one I'd seen before but I realized that this whole playing-by-ear thing is pretty critical for that and not something that ear-players often explain in an understandable way, so hope this helps some.
 
Last edited:
what “patterns” are some of you referring to?

I believe there are two patterns being named as such
1.) fingerboard patterns - string/ fret coordinates
2.) patterns of functional harmony ( the 'roman numeral' chords, the academic twin of Nashville numbers)

Am I right in saying that if you change the one to the root note of a key and play the same pattern, it will work?

Yes. If The verse of I Got Rhythm, in C major , is C - Amin7 - Dmin7 - G7
Functionally its is a I - vi - ii - V7 progression.
you could start your bass line on the A string 3rd fret.

In the key of Bb major it's Bb - Gmin7 - Cmin7 -F7,
but it's still I - vi - ii - V7 progression.
You can play the same fingering pattern as above,
only every fret/string coordinate moved down 2 frets

so, some "pattern players " will transpose simply by fingering a pattern elsewhere on the neck
As @JimmyM correctly points out, this won't always work

Yes a triad pattern on a bass will give you triads all over the place. So will scale patterns.
So will chord progressions - at least on a bass tuned in 4ths
within limits

To me the key to transposing is viewing chord progressions functionally
This combined with learning the 7 harmonized chords for each key

If functional harmony is new to you, maybe check the PDF in my signature

I write it all out for I want to know the chords involved. It makes more sense to me to think this way than pattern position.
I would still do this as it's more bullet proof
 
Last edited:
Our Worship teams are pretty good at bringing in songs that fit in the vocalists ranges.
But every in in a while we still might have to change the key.

I can do this but I have to stop and write out what all the chords are changed to.
Some bass players just start playing in the new key without thinking it.

What music theory did they study so they could do this?
Do they visualize the fingerboard in a different way?

Do they study a song in all keys like Classical bass players are trained ?

If anyone has some information or a technique on how this is accomplished Please let me know.

Thanks in advance
Clayton

Study the keys and what chords are in them. Study chord progressions and get your ear used to what a II, III, IV, V, VI, and VII (you won't find that last one much in a CCM group) sound like against the I chord and in typical progressions. CCM uses a lot of repetitive and standard chord progressions, so if that's what you're playing, there will be a lot of examples.

Learn your scales in all keys, forward and backward. You'll want to know how to go from a root to any other root in either direction. Learn to apply those patterns, and you'll start to be able to transpose.

When I played a regular church gig, the BL did numbers charts. Highly useful.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CaribooBass
I agree. Patterns are a mechanical approach to a musical situation.
Once you get them under your fingers, they are a way to disconnect from thinking about what you're doing and they enable you to fully immerse in creating the music.

I personally don't understand the "thinking about every note" method and would find that far more mechanical than just knowing instinctively where your fingers need to go to play each interval you hear in your head so you can pull that up from muscle memory without any thought. That, to me, is what makes it possible to become one with the music and get into the zone - which is where I want to be.

But I get what Jimmy is saying, because not every pattern works all the time. If you need to rely on open strings, you're going to get confused at times - as an example. There's no perfect method for anything that always works all the time. But I would never discourage anyone from learning to play intervals by calling that "mechanical" when it is very freeing in the least mechanical way possible once it is fully internalized.
 
Last edited:
I agree. Patterns are a mechanical approach to a musical situation.
Instruments are themselves a mechanical means of producing sound and making music.
I think when people talk about “patterns” they are really just describing a visual approach to learning, which is totally understandable since typically 80% of our brains are processing information from our eyes and visual cortex.
If you can visualize the chord changes in your mind, I think you are 3/4 of the way to transposing a song.
 
I'm confused. I guess I know the song with the root at let's say A. So the root position is E String 5th Fret. If I have to detune 2 steps, the root becomes E String 3rd Fret and everything is the exact same from there. Its one of the reasons you will see so many players avoid open strings. Makes this process easier.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LBS-bass
I'm confused. I guess I know the song with the root at let's say A. So the root position is E String 5th Fret. If I have to detune 2 steps, the root becomes E String 3rd Fret and everything is the exact same from there. Its one of the reasons you will see so many players avoid open strings. Makes this process easier.
Yes, it's literally this simple but folks will fight you over it because it's not the way they learned.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TyBo and MVE
Once you get them under your fingers, they are a way to disconnect from thinking about what you're doing and they enable you to fully immerse in creating the music.

I personally don't understand the "thinking about every note" method and would find that far more mechanical than just knowing instinctively where your fingers need to go to play each interval you hear in your head so you can pull that up from muscle memory without any thought. That, to me, is what makes it possible to become one with the music and get into the zone - which is where I want to be.

But I get what Jimmy is saying, because not every pattern works all the time. If you need to rely on open strings, you're going to get confused at times - as an example. There's no perfect method for anything that always works all the time. But I would never discourage anyone from learning to play intervals by calling that "mechanical" when it is very freeing in the least mechanical way possible once it is fully internalized.
I never think about every note when I’m reading music, just as I don’t think about every letter in a word when I read the newspaper.
 
Instruments are themselves a mechanical means of producing sound and making music.
I think when people talk about “patterns” they are really just describing a visual approach to learning, which is totally understandable since typically 80% of our brains are processing information from our eyes and visual cortex.
If you can visualize the chord changes in your mind, I think you are 3/4 of the way to transposing a song.[/
I wonder where the concept of pitch lives in our brains.
 
I never think about every note when I’m reading music, just as I don’t think about every letter in a word when I read the newspaper.
That's good, because it seems like some folks never learn how to get past having to name each note as they play it.

I think there's a time and a place for learning the notes and where they are on the fretboard but if you're stuck saying the note-names in your head as a way to remember where they are, there's a barrier between you and the music.

As for the concept of pitch, most of us who play using patterns are actually playing by ear, the pattern is just something you pick up along the way through ear-playing. Eventually you realize there are patterns to it, and all minor thirds are the same reach from the root, etc. There's not a lot of thought between what you hear in your head and what you do with your fingers at this point.

For me, I can play an interval a lot more quickly than I can tell you what that interval is. People with more formal ear training can probably name the interval more quickly than I can.
 
Yeah. Another analogy for me would be singing a song - I couldn't tell you the names of the notes as I sing them (and maybe not even what key I'm in, if I'm just going a cappella). Doesn't matter, it's just about feeling where the next note is and knowing how to make that sound. Playing an instrument can be a bit like that ... having patterns under your fingers is kind of in line with that, a feel thing - doesn't have to be rigid adherence (in fact shouldn't be). Just a physical frame of reference on the fretboard, which moves and flexes as needed. Like my voice does.
 
Yes, it's literally this simple but folks will fight you over it because it's not the way they learned.
When playing complicated music with crazy interval jumps, moving patterns up and down the neck doesn’t always work- that’s when those with a high level of skill shine.
Learning how notes work with each other is just as valuable as learning mechanical patterns.
 
When playing complicated music with crazy interval jumps, moving patterns up and down the neck doesn’t always work- that’s when those with a high level of skill shine.
Learning how notes work with each other is just as valuable as learning mechanical patterns.
I really wish you would stop referring to this as "mechanical" because it is anything but.

This is ear training taken to it's utmost degree. It is exactly what frees you to play complicated music without any hesitation or barrier between the music and yourself. You give me any song that I've heard enough to play back in my head, and I can play it, without a chart, in any key. The only barrier to that is my own technical proficiency. If it's too fast, maybe my fingers can't do it. If it involves techniques I'm not good at, I might not play it as well as someone else can. But playing stuff like this by ear is pretty much all I do. My band does this stuff all the time for fun, because we all play like this. And we do it while laying down three-part harmonies. Can you do that with complicated songs you've never played before?

I'm quite sure that most people can't, because I've worked with them, and the vast majority of players out there do not have the ear to even attempt that. They'll stand there patiently while the rest of us are off to the races, but they can't join in because they don't know how.

Put a chart in front of me and I'll play from it until I know how the changes go, that's no problem, but once I know the song, once again, I'll play it in any key by ear.

There's nothing mechanical about it. You don't do it this way, so why do you think you know something about how it actually works?

It is fine to do this however works for each person. We all learn differently. But you are demonstrating a serious lack of understanding and it would be better if you stopped pretending you understand this.

When I hear an interval in my head, my head knows exactly where to move to in order to make it work. There's nothing mechanical about having an intimate understanding of where the notes are on the fretboard that you can recall without any need for thought.

I play this way because getting into flow is important for me, and this is what works. I don't know if you are able to get into a flow or not, because I don't play the way you do, and I'm not going to sit here and pretend I understand how you or most people do it. I respect that you do what works for you and if we both end up with good results and are able to play what we want to play, that is what matters.

But you are seriously misleading people here who might benefit from a recognition that this method could work for them.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TomB
Similar to the Nashville number system, I think in terms of scale degree I.e., 6m 2m 5 1. I also know my modes, so when I see a minor 2 chord, I immediately know it’s Dorian (a minor scale with a raised 6th).

Soooo, if we’re playing in the key of F, and someone calls out ‘D’ I know it’s D minor even if they leave out the ‘Minor’. In fact, when I’m working with other pro’s, we often leave out the ‘Minor’ or ‘Major’ as we call out chords or scale degrees because once you know your key, you don’t need that info unless something is out of the ordinary. So, back to the F example, if someone says “We’re 1 6 2 5 in the key of F”, I know it’s F, Dm, Gm (Dorian), C without them having to specify all the major/minors or modes. Non-pros, on the other hand, get frustrated when you don’t call out the major/minor specifications:

Them: You didn’t say Dm you said D
Me: I shouldn’t have to say ‘minor’, we’re in the key if F, the 6 chord is always minor unless I specify otherwise by saying ‘Major’.

Back to the orig post: So if one day someone says let’s drop that 6 2 5 1 song to C, it ain’t nothing to do that in the fly. Gonna just find a C and work relative to that.

ADVANCED: From what I see, too many player’s always root on the E string. But, get familiar rooting on the A string as well. From the A string, the 5th degree always sits just below on the E string. The 6th is always below and 2 frets up. Etc. If you practice rooting all songs on both the E string and the A string, and you know your 7 mode shapes relative to scale degrees, then transposing on the fly is really easy. Just take a pencil and note the scale degree on the chart and you’re good to go.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LBS-bass
I got a book on the Nashville Numbers system, as a total non-reader/"by ear" musician, when I joined a classic western swing/country band--mainly for fun, I thought "what the heck, let's learn how those cats did it". Turned out to be one of the best things I ever did for my musicianship in any genre of music. I still can't read notation, but I write out numbers charts often, and sometimes for the other players as well. Super useful skill.
You don’t recall the name of the book do you?