Double Bass Symbol for repeat three times?

[james condino]

I've been writing the charts for several arrangements this month for tunes that my band plays. There are a few with a form of AAAB. I'll use the very basic David Grisman Quintet's EMD as an example- simplified to (E- C7) x3 and then (A7 C7 B7). 16 *16 is similar and I believe A Night in Tunisia has a triple section in the A part, even though it is usually charted as one long A.

Is there an standardized symbol or way to write repeating the A part 3 times? I've seen a few tunes in the real book where they write the first take as a separate section and then below it write the second part again, but that has repeat bars with two dots for a total of 3x.

I asked several of my orchestral friends and they all said it is rare and when it shows up, they just write 3x above the section in pencil. That seemed like a weak answer. I've been writing it as a single section with repeat bars, but adding three dots. It keeps the chart clean and my band knows what I'm trying to say. Is there such a thing as a triple repeat bar? Would three bars and three dots be a non sequitur? I know...another non-music major asking basic questions; 'apologies for all of that time I wasted in engineering school.

 

[Wasnex]

What I remember seeing is a mark like this over the 1st bar of the repeated section:

Last bar has the usual repeat sign. In other words, there may be more bars before you actually hit the repeat.

If the song continues after the third section, the 1st bar of has a mark something like this:

The only difference is it is not followed with a repeat sign.

Examples:

etc.

You can also write a different ending for each repeat.

2X or 3x is also common, but probably more common as an added edit or modification.

Also consider Dal Segno or Da Capo as appropriate.

 

[SteveCS]

What I remember seeing is a mark like this over the 1st bar of the repeated section:

Last bar has the usual repeat sign.
...

It is called a 'Volta'. The important point to remember is to skip the bars - there can be more than one, even entire sections - under the first volta when going through the last repeat.

 

[jj.833]

In simplified jazz charts, I mostly see 3x written above the right repeat sign. If you want to avoid confusion ("does it mean repeat 3x=play 4x, or repeat 2x=play 3x?") there's "play 3x" written above.

 

[Nashrakh]

I've seen both versions -- the "3x" shorthand and the Voltas -- used in charts, and both will be readily understood by most anyone. It's a style choice, when it comes down to it.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The 3X at the right repeat sign is common. Just write it big enough that it can‘t be overseen.

But there might be an easier to read and less mind stressing notation that needs a bit more room but may support the form a bit better.
Put two occasions in a repeat, the second under a first volta, the second volta gets the part after the three repeats of the phrase. That way you see first half and second half of the complete part.
Not the shortest way to notate, but less error prone.

 

[crd]

If you're trying to denote form, just mark sections with a box around the letter and put AABA at the bottom. [-A-] -> first ending -> 2nd ending [-B-]ridge.

 

[Tom Lane]

I've struggled with this too. Some of my charts don't really have 3 different endings because they're all the same, like Little Sunflower, which just has two sections, but the A-section is played twice, then the B, and then the A again before you return to the top. The best I've found is to write out the entire chart, Both A's, then the B, and then the last A, but if that requires more than one piece of paper, I've opted to write out the A and the B, and that at the top of the chart, to the left, just above the first measure, I write in large letters A-A-B-A and usually remind the band before we start. Let us know what you settle on and what seems to work for you. I think we all struggle with this one.

 

[turf3]

There probably is some obscure symbol, but in the absence of 1st 2nd 3rd endings, I'd err on the side of readability and instant understanding and write "Play 3Xs". If it's not totally clear the span of music being referred to, I'd add rehearsal letters and write "Play -D- to -E- 3 Xs".

After going through the music theory courses and all the very specific terminology and learning EXACTLY the correct traditional way to notate everything (50 years ago, so don't ask me about it now!) I always default to readability and instant understanding. It's not a considerate thing to assume every musician reading your chart has had the specific extensive training to understand every uncommon symbol.

 

[turf3]

I've struggled with this too. Some of my charts don't really have 3 different endings because they're all the same, like Little Sunflower, which just has two sections, but the A-section is played twice, then the B, and then the A again before you return to the top. The best I've found is to write out the entire chart, Both A's, then the B, and then the last A, but if that requires more than one piece of paper, I've opted to write out the A and the B, and that at the top of the chart, to the left, just above the first measure, I write in large letters A-A-B-A and usually remind the band before we start. Let us know what you settle on and what seems to work for you. I think we all struggle with this one.

There's one tune that'll throw folks off and that's "I'll Remember April" which is NOT a traditional AABA with the bridge at B; it's ABA with a very standard kind of bridge at B. So if you don't make it crystal clear, some of the guys that haven't played it a lot will try to repeat that first A and the ones that know the tune will go to the bridge and it just goes downhill from there.

 

[Steve Freides]

I've struggled with this too. Some of my charts don't really have 3 different endings because they're all the same, like Little Sunflower, which just has two sections, but the A-section is played twice, then the B, and then the A again before you return to the top. The best I've found is to write out the entire chart, Both A's, then the B, and then the last A, but if that requires more than one piece of paper, I've opted to write out the A and the B, and that at the top of the chart, to the left, just above the first measure, I write in large letters A-A-B-A and usually remind the band before we start. Let us know what you settle on and what seems to work for you. I think we all struggle with this one.

In classical music, this is D. C. al Coda. You play A with the 1st ending, you play A with the 2nd ending, you go on to the B section, and at the end of the B section is say "DC al Code" where you go back to the beginning and play until see the "to Coda" words or symbol, and then the Coda is the ending. Da Capo - from the "head" or beginning, you play as written until you get the instruction to go to the Coda. I don't think I've ever seen it in a lead sheet, though.

-S-

 

[turf3]

I'm pretty sure I've seen some lead sheets written with DC al Coda. For their purpose it's understood that the whole song form will be repeated. Hand that to a bunch of orchestra players and they'll go through once and stop and then get all flustered that everyone else is playing choruses 2 - 14.

Just joking, mostly.

What's the most common is to put first and second endings on the first to A parts of a 32 bar AABA tune and then write out the last A after the bridge.

When you get into songs that have a verse, and a lot of times the verse has repeats as well, then goes into a 32 bar chorus, etc., it can get unbearably complicated if you insist on using ONLY traditional orchestral notation; that's where doing things like writing "Go to E second time" get real useful; also less prone to misunderstanding.

But how to notate AABA tunes using the least amount of paper isn't the same thing as "is there a single symbol that means "play three times"?

 

[Tom Lane]

In classical music, this is D. C. al Coda. You play A with the 1st ending, you play A with the 2nd ending, you go on to the B section, and at the end of the B section is say "DC al Code" where you go back to the beginning and play until see the "to Coda" words or symbol, and then the Coda is the ending. Da Capo - from the "head" or beginning, you play as written until you get the instruction to go to the Coda. I don't think I've ever seen it in a lead sheet, though.

-S-

Yes, now that I think on it, I remember that that's what I figured out and that I had learned it as a kid. But, as you and others have commented, it's not common knowledge among casual musicians who haven't received much formal training. I think I have seen it in lead sheets but not commonly. I'm not sure what I'd do if I had to make a similar chart now. It might depend on the group of players I was playing with.

 

[oren]

I’ve employed all these techniques in lead sheets. There’s usually conflicting goals: easy readability (just write the three sections out, or write a single repeat and then write out the last A after the bridge) vs. trying to fit the chart to a minimal number of pages. In my experience I would expect the players I work with to be able to cope with DC or DS notations if that seems appropriate, but I wouldn’t hesitate to put a big note that says AABA Form or something of that sort if it seems likely to get confused in the moment.

 

[james condino]

All good comments and very validating that it's not just me struggling with this! 800 years of written music and I'm still amazed there isn't a simple universal symbol...

 

[crd]

All good comments and very validating that it's not just me struggling with this! 800 years of written music and I'm still amazed there isn't a simple universal symbol...

If you are playing a tune with AAAB as the form make the B section part of the 4th ending.
so A section --> |1,2,3 ---> |4th ending same tag (weird but I guess it happens) then B section.

Also, Night in Tunisia is AABA so, there are sometimes three A sections in a row but only because the form starts over.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The reason that nothing exists from classical music notation is that the forms at that time did not repeat the same thing three times. And space on paper was not as important then as in a single page lead sheet. So repeating the notation once and put Volta 1 on the second half and append Volta 2 was a possible solution.

I asked my wife, a classically trained composer of contemporary music and she told me what you already know, write 3X above the end of the repeating section.

Typically words are avoided since it could be italian (which every classically trained musician should be able to read in the musically relevant vocabulary) or might be english (in the popular music). Other languages should be avoided, since foreign musicians might not understand.
So “Play 3X” should be absolutely OK in a lead sheet for jazz musicians.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So “Play 3X” should be absolutely OK in a lead sheet for jazz musicians.

Some examples.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Voltas should be used for alternate endings in one part of the piece.
This is not the case if you need identical repeats with the same ending.

So the first example is possible, but irritating and better should be avoided.
The second one has not identical repeats.

We already discussed that voltas are a good solution if you have at least one different ending, because then you need them if you don’t want to write the (mostly) repeating passage again.

 

[oren]

Regarding the importance of space on paper, at my community symphony rehearsal tonight the conductor said that when symphony parts were printed in the 19th century they were all hand engraved and it took around 8 hours for a skilled craftsman to produce a single page. The score the conductor had for the piece we were working on tonight (Dvorak 6) is some 300 pages long. The combined bass and cello part is 26 pages.