It was my understanding after talking to David Wilson that the single tailpice wire was experimental and not a replacement for the tradional tailpiece configuration. I can think of several reasons for not using it extensively, particularly in view of it taking considerably longer to install than the traditional two wire configuration. I am not questioning the shop no longer installing the single wire configuration, but rather the explanation. The idea that limiting the vibration of the tailpiece would somehow increase the vibration of the top makes no sense what so ever. The only practical difference between the single wire and the double wire has to do with the twisting on axis motion of the tailpiece. It does little if any to the motion in the other two planes (up and down, and side to side) at each end. Also, as you mention, the solid wire tailwires installed on many cheaper basses have not gathered a reputation for helping produce better sound. For the limited tailpiece vibration theory to work, I guess we all need to get bigger diameter and stiffer wire. I think not!
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Double Bass Tailgut change fears & questions
- Thread starter Tim Skaggs
- Start date
- Mar 19, 2002
- 800
- 130
- 53
- Disclosures
- President: Upton Bass String Instrument Co.
myrick said:
Without spending any quality time on the subject, Pinching the cables over the saddle can help with projection, but may take away from the E & G. Widening this distance can bring out those strings, but take away some projection.
Play with it, i'm sure it's more sensitive on some basses than on others.
Heifetzbass
Commercial User
- Feb 6, 2004
- 774
- 118
- Disclosures
- Owner, Gencarelli Bass Works and Fine String Instruments, LLC.
While in college, I experimented with the setup of my bass. I had a cheap romainian hybrid at the time and was looking for anything to "loosen up" the sound. A friend pointed me in the direction of removing the tailpiece and I made a rigging out of the tailpiece wire that connected to each string. So each strings ball end was wrapped in the wire then fed around the endpin and secured with the same clamps that Bob G. shows in his photo. The results? It really reduced the tension on the top. (At least it seemed too.) The action was much easier, and the sustain was much better. Now- it could be simply because I removed the mass of the ebony tailpiece and replaced it with small cables that barely weighed anything, but it was like that until I sold it. And no, I have never tried it with the "Heifetz".
FWIW,
Brian
FWIW,
Brian
Please spend some quality time on the subject. That make absolutely no sense what so ever. A tailpiece moves in three planes and rotates on it's axis. Spreading the tailpiece cable increases the resistance to rotation but does little to the other plane movements. Moving the cable closer together decreases the resistance to rotation and also does very little to the other plane movements. Why that would take anything away from the E & G and do nothing (or improve) the D & A?eroy said:
- Mar 19, 2002
- 800
- 130
- 53
- Disclosures
- President: Upton Bass String Instrument Co.
Perhaps my wording could have been better...I did not mean to imply that it does nothing to the A&D and only changes the E&G. Maybe it would be better to say closer together accentuates the A&D and wider accentuates the E&G.
This was a "trick" I learned in violinmaking school...and I have used it ever since. It seems to work for all the stringed instruments. I have never questioned why it works or how...only liking that it does seem to work, even if it is subtle.
Additionally, as I work for a wholesale distributor, some of the shops that by strings and accessories from me are VERY specific about the hole placement for the tail gut on the tail pieces they buy (as well as other specs for the tailpieces, length, string width). Just this week a shop needed a specific tailpiece meeting spec for a Guarneri violin they were setting up.
This was a "trick" I learned in violinmaking school...and I have used it ever since. It seems to work for all the stringed instruments. I have never questioned why it works or how...only liking that it does seem to work, even if it is subtle.
Additionally, as I work for a wholesale distributor, some of the shops that by strings and accessories from me are VERY specific about the hole placement for the tail gut on the tail pieces they buy (as well as other specs for the tailpieces, length, string width). Just this week a shop needed a specific tailpiece meeting spec for a Guarneri violin they were setting up.
This might be a good subject for you to bring up on TOBI-L so we can hear what the real world thinks of this so-call "trick". In my real world experience (over 40 years), I've not seen any evidence to show me that it is anything but an old wives tale - at least when it comes to double basses.eroy said:
Good cable will do just fine. I made my own from aircraft cable down at the local hardware store. 5/32's I think, it's been two years. No Problems at all just better sound. It in not as much stress as you think. Less than 1000 lbs I would guess. Probably more like 400 or 500 lbs. Just get the cable that has the most strands for a given size. Think about where you are going to put the crimp splice. I put mine on top of the tail piece- a error. My section leader put his in back of the end-pin.
Joe
Joe
I have found this very interesting and I thank you all for the info. I just have one question. I want to know how one knows how far to adjust your tailpiece when you install the tail wire? Do you leave it the same length as your old one or make it longer or shorter. I know this might be a dumbass question, but are there certain specs to set the tailpiece? I have seen some tailpieces 3 inches above the bottom of the bass and I have seen a few an inch or so below the bottom of the bass.
Any info would be appreciated.
Danny S
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
The distance that matters most is the distance between the bridge and the tailpiece. This afterlength should be 2 octaves and a fourth higher than the string it belongs to or 1/6 of the vibrating string length.
This concept has been discussed in various threads - use the 'Search' function for further reading.
I love it when a 7.5 year-old TB thread comes back to life
.How you doing Danny ? ........ "buffalobob" here
. You aren't the only person to ask "a dumbass question" about this stuff. I myself (being a bonafide dumbass) asked a similar question awhile back ......http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=388805 .
Maybe that thread will answer some questions for you. Or it might just confuse you even further. Still got the late 30's Kay? The short answer is 7" to 7.5" if you want to cut to the chase
.Off Topic ..... You still playing with The Tommy Webb Band? I listen to "Heartland" quite often and hope to play some good and beefy bluegrass / country bass like you do someday
. All of the Tommy Webb music is Good Stuff. I hope to come to KY and hear you folks someday.Danny, if you are listening, Jake's method is the delux way of doing things. Some may say he is pizzing into the wind and practicing voo-doo but I believe him. He is a good luthier and his team just won the Gold Medal in Olympic Hockey. I know Jake was probably thrilled beyond belief about having the Olympics in his town
.I have an Epiphone that he did the treatments to and I think it does add to the overall sound of the bass, especially in combination with other fixes. Over at bluegrass bass place I had a thread if you want to check it out .... http://www.bluegrassbassplace.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1786 .
With that "fourths-tuning" deal, now below the bridge, I have C / G / D / A (checked with my tuner) and even played "How Mountain Girls Can Love" on open strings 1/4/5 in G one night after a couple beers ..... Not much volume and it hurt my lower back from bending over so much
.He is doing the same treatments (plus a new ebony board) to my '40 Kay. Jake is putting on some of those Innovation Honeys like you were running. Your old Kay on the live recording you sent me sounded real-good ... So I figured I better try some out. Now I just gotta plan-out how to get my bass back from him up there in Canada (800 miles one-way).
Yes Bob, that's something about this 7.5 year old thread. That just goes to show the lengths (No pun intended) us bassers will go to gather info.
Yes, I am still with the Tommy Webb Band and having a ball. Kenny O. has recently switched over to Don Rigsby and Midnight Call so I have picked-up alot more of the baritone duties.
I sent you a PM about the specs I am dealing with pertainng to the 39 Kay.
Great to hear from you Bob, Jake and all concerning this thread. It has been very helpful to me.
Danny S.
Yes, I am still with the Tommy Webb Band and having a ball. Kenny O. has recently switched over to Don Rigsby and Midnight Call so I have picked-up alot more of the baritone duties.
I sent you a PM about the specs I am dealing with pertainng to the 39 Kay.
Great to hear from you Bob, Jake and all concerning this thread. It has been very helpful to me.
Danny S.
This is a blast from the past. That question was two basses ago. I wish I had it back. I have a 52 Kay M-1 & I haven't bothered changing the tailpiece wire on it. Priorities change....
I switched from aircraft cable to Mike Pecanic's braided one about four years ago. I think it helped my bass, especially in combination with a Pecanic walnut tailpiece. Velvet also sells a similar one, but it's more expensive.
We've come a long way since using coat hanger wire in the 60's.
George
We've come a long way since using coat hanger wire in the 60's.
George
Tim I have read many of your posts' and you seem to be very intelligent on these old Kays. I just changed from Innovation Honeys to Thomastic Super Flexibles and I have got a mojor Dead area around the A sharp up through the B flat on the g string.
I have recently developed a rattle , but that for another topic. Please comment if you know anything about going down in a guage of strings and it's effect.
Thanks again all
Danny s.
The hard truth about stringed instruments made of wood; somewhere there's a frequency that the wood resontates at and "soaks up" the vibration of the string. It's a real nighmare on some fretted slab basses. Uprights don't seem nearly as bad because they don't have long sustain anyway, but I didn't say they were immune to dead spots. Of the basses I've played and owned, which are mostly plywood, the dead spot is around "A". My worst was open "A". There's no absolute cure I know of. String gauges will make a difference. I haven't played Thomastics in a long time & the last I played were Spiros. I haven't found, played, or owned a Kay or Englehardt that didn't sound good with low tension perlon / nylon core strings. I play mostly bluegrass, so I'm not looking for a thin string with growl. I'm sold on Innovation Super Silvers for what I do; sound, life, durability.
