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Double Bass Take me to school - Bowing on EUB

4Mal

Gold Supporting Member
Jun 2, 2002
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Columbia River Gorge
I have an Ibanez UB-804 which like a lot. Stock d'Addario Chrome strings and a checp bow that was included when I bought the bass here.

Questions are -
Is bowing with this string set OK or do I really need a diferent set? I'm kinda hopimg that the Chrimes will work as they sound great finger style.
Is there a rosin recommendation ?

Are there any recommendable on line resources for learning to bow ? I've been souring the Pacific Northwest for an imstructor but so far, no dice...

Thanks!
 
Are the strings smooth flats or round wound or textured? Smooth flats are probably okay. How well the instrument bows and what it sound like could be another matter. If the string catches the bow hairs, stop trying.

I have played a 42" scale NS Design EUB for probably over 20 years. It's bowable, but I think it sounds awful. I do have the contemporary string set on it. Perhaps it would sound better with the traditional string set. I didn't buy it to bow.

IME, the EUB that will be most like a real upright is one of the Yamaha Silent Basses.
 
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I would say the video above is very musical. My perception is the bass seems a bit challenging to bow and the player is probably using a lot of finesse to make it sound good. Also what he is playing is meant to showcase the bass. So he may be avoiding certain things the instrument does not do well.

For rosin you want something that is bass specific. AFAIK Pops should be fairly easy to find. I used it for decades but I think Carlsson is notably better in several ways. I have read the Nyman is the same as Carlsson. There are lot's of options and the best choice can vary by environment, bass, and the player's approach. I wouldn't go too far down the rabbit hole at this point.

The most important thing I can tell you about bowing is it's not about brute strength. You pull/coax a sound from the strings rather than forcing it out. As I mentioned, it sounds like this instrument way require significant finesse to get the strings started. The way this is done can vary with the personality of the bass and the range you are playing.

Search YouTube for "double bass bowing" and you will get a lot of videos. Some relevant and some not.

I like these, but they may not be the best choices for you at the current time:



 
Really? Neither of the Double Bass teachers at University of Portland or Portland State University can help you?
 

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The Ibanez might be named short scale EUB or upright bass guitar since it uses bass guitar strings.
DB strings and BG strings have a different construction. I once got a DB that was constructed like longer bass guitar string and it sounded almost like fretless bass on my DB and EUB.

Bass guitar strings are not made for bowability, their construction is rather similar to very old undamped double bass steel (core) strings with a single rod core. They were quickly replaced by multi strand, often spiral wound, steel cores that are more flexible, often with different amounts of damping material between the winding layers which also help with bow ability and nicer arco sound.

The longer scale of real DB strings helps bowing the lower strings as they can be thinner and therefor often more flexible.

Roundwound strings (as most BG strings are) can be bowed, but it is a bit harder than flatwound and the bow should be moved perpendicular to the string. Bowing flatwounds is a bit easier.
But even on a DB there are strings for bowing, for plucking and several hybrid choices that need to make compromises on both sides.

So, you see that a bass guitar based EUB is not optimal for bowing. You might need experimenting with strings (metal outer windings needed!), rosin (get something sticky like Pops) and bow hair (black grabs better). But I’m sure it sounds too metallic due to the BG strings.

The quality of the bow is not so much important as you have a situation that is far from optimal.
Carbon fiber is almost indestructible but sounds a bit cold, wood (brazilwood is OK for you) is warmer but the tip can break if it falls down on it making the bow firewood.

Bow rehair every year (or two if you play by less), cost about same price or half of a cheaper bow, but with better hair quality and fresh.

The bowing might become a bit costly experiment.

A DB-based EUB is better for bowing and the ones with a resonating top best for bowing (but still not as good as a real, even cheap, DB). But these are more expensive than a student DB and probably more than four times expensive as your Ibanez.

What does a fully custom made BG cost you? That and a bit more is what you need to invest.

A cheap doghouse with a bridge (leg/foot/adjuster) mounted pickup might be a better thing for bowing unless it gets loud.

Keep in mind that you need a DB luthier for setup. It is easy to ruin a DB or EUB with DIY.

You might find players who bow BG strings, but most if not all of them never tried bowing a DB or better EUB.

And there are the tripod vs. endpin types.
The tripod fixes you relative to the bass. Not good if you play for a longer time but maybe helpful if you need to change quickly between BG and EUB.
The endpin helps you to be able to move a bit as the bass moves with you, but you need a body support and it takes some time to find the best position.
No tripods on an acoustic DB, so DB players in general prefer the endpin.
BG players often prefer the tripod (maybe because they don’t play longer periods and don’t have the comparison or don’t want to invest time to find out what is best or simply because they already get it with their EUB).
 
Can you bow an EUB? Yes. Can you bow your EUB as set up with the cheap bow you have? Maybe.

Are there videos? Of course.

Will this all likely lead to frustration? YES! 😜

If you really want to learn to bow, you'll need a properly set-up, regular scale double bass, a decent bow, a qualified teacher, and whatever rosin they recommend.

There are plenty of good teachers in Portland. DM me if you want a recommendation.

If you just want to fart around, rosin up your bow with whatever and start sawing away.
 
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Can it be done? Yes.
Start with just an open E and try to get a good tone.
Then place your finger on the E string to sound a G note. Does the tone now suck? If so, go get lessons!
If not, try an open A. Then, when that’s sounding good, back to E, and the G on the E string. If you can transition between these three notes, add in a C note on the A string. If it’s sounding great then you are a musical genius.
If it shows promise then video yourself doing it and look at the bowing position and angle consistency.
If (like me…) it’s inconsistent and you can’t seem to make it fluent, go get lessons - even a few will set you on the right path and identify technique and or gear that needs changing.
Worst is to try and give up - it might be something so easy to change that will be easily pointed out by a decent teacher.
Good luck!!
 
I have an Ibanez UB-804 which like a lot. Stock d'Addario Chrome strings and a checp bow that was included when I bought the bass here.

Questions are -
Is bowing with this string set OK or do I really need a diferent set? I'm kinda hopimg that the Chrimes will work as they sound great finger style.
Is there a rosin recommendation ?

Are there any recommendable on line resources for learning to bow ? I've been souring the Pacific Northwest for an imstructor but so far, no dice...

Thanks!
Check out this series by Andy Anderson. I think there are 10 vids in the series. This is episode 2.

 
My son played 1/8 bass which would be just around the scale lenght of UB804, I guess. There was no problem with bowing it. He used a stock Thomann solid wood bass, those use Dadario Prelude strings that are quite cheap and definitely bowable nicely.

Another thing however is, whether it is possible to learn to bow right on an EUB. The trouble with learning to bow is that it is actually quite technical, you need to perform very specific moves. If you can't hear whether what you do is right, you can't really get very good at it. It seems to me quite likely that the response and resonance of the EUB will be too different from acoustic double bass. But even with this objection it makes sense, if only to let you get used to healthier stance and enhance your intonation. But I would suggest to REALLY find the teacher, where you can at least see and hear the true acoustic sound you probably want to achieve.
 
The problem is that fractional DB strings don‘t fit a BG bridge. So they are not useable on the short BG-string EUBs.
With the exception of the NS Omni basses of course! However I don't think it would be very difficult to add some hardware to the end of the strings to make them mountable on a bass guitar bridge- I've done this to mount guitar strings (more specifically Bass VI strings, which have a guitar-sized ball-end) on a bass bridge before. In fact, looking at my Omni Bass' strings right now, the ball ends look large enough to stay put on a bass bridge as is, though sliding some old bass string ball ends to the end would make it almost certain to work
 
...

If you really want to learn to bow, you'll need a properly set-up, regular scale double bass, a decent bow, a qualified teacher, and whatever rosin they recommend.
...
And there it is. You can flail away in ways that might maybe work with a lot more effort and lower chance of success, or you can use the methods used by hundreds of thousands of middle schoolers to get playing in their school orchestras in a matter of months. Your choice.

I find it kind of fascinating that people who'd take tennis lessons, or would make sure to take skiing lessons before hitting the black diamond slopes, will try so hard to avoid just doing the straightforward thing.

You want to play double bass? Play double bass. Get a decent student bass, a decent student bow, engage a qualified instructor, work out of one of the standard methods books.

EUB, acoustic bass guitars, etc., etc., etc., are all things that can be useful substitutes for the double bass under certain circumstances, but it's my belief you'll do best to start with a solid foundation of double bass playing, and then use those substitutes when they're called for.
 
With the exception of the NS Omni basses of course! However I don't think it would be very difficult to add some hardware to the end of the strings to make them mountable on a bass guitar bridge- I've done this to mount guitar strings (more specifically Bass VI strings, which have a guitar-sized ball-end) on a bass bridge before. In fact, looking at my Omni Bass' strings right now, the ball ends look large enough to stay put on a bass bridge as is, though sliding some old bass string ball ends to the end would make it almost certain to work
Try it. I doubt it will work.
Or you have the underlengths with a different mass per length unit at the vibrating part which makes the string inharmonic and the frets being at the wrong places.
 
One thing folks have not mentioned- EUB doesn't have a resonant chamber, which in turn excites the strings when bowing. IME, French grip isn't really very effective. Using German grip/ frog allowed me the power to get the strings vibrating, and to respond. About to restart my journey on EUB after a rotator cuff injury took me out for a while. I have owned BSX, Clevinger, Carruthers, Kydd, and a few more. Personally, I found NS to be the best for my needs. Helicore Hybrid strings and an ARI Brazilwood bow. Also have a carbon fiber bow, but it is a bit too stiff and thin sounding.
 
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