Tapered .120 B string sounds sharp above 12th fret

[konaaayukeeenee]

I had a custom set of very light roundwounds made for a 33" scale 6-string but have been having issues with the tapered low B. It's difficult to tune and intonate since the tuner needle constantly oscillates and once I did get it 'close enough', everything above the12th fret would sound very sharp.

I had two sets made and I've just tried the other B string too, same problem. Switching to an old, untapered .125 solves the issue - not perfect in terms of how easy it is to tune and intonate (still get a bit of oscillation compared to other basses) but much better and I don't have the issue with the sharp sounding notes.

Could this be an issue with the tapering? If it's because of having a light gauge on a medium scale, I'd like to know how some players are able to use such gauges without the same issues.

Thanks

 

[michael_t]

How long is the taper at the ball end in relation to the saddle. Is it just long enough to clear the saddle, or does it extend quite a bit beyond the saddle? I ask because, based on my experience, the taper that's too long can cause intonation issues.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I had a custom set of very light roundwounds made for a 33" scale 6-string but have been having issues with the tapered low B. It's difficult to tune and intonate since the tuner needle constantly oscillates and once I did get it 'close enough', everything above the12th fret would sound very sharp.

I had two sets made and I've just tried the other B string too, same problem. Switching to an old, untapered .125 solves the issue - not perfect in terms of how easy it is to tune and intonate (still get a bit of oscillation compared to other basses) but much better and I don't have the issue with the sharp sounding notes.

Could this be an issue with the tapering? If it's because of having a light gauge on a medium scale, I'd like to know how some players are able to use such gauges without the same issues.

Thanks

If the tuner needle never reaches some semblance of stability, your #'s are no good. There is no "close enough". What's the tuner in question? Which is most stable: open string, fretted 12th, or harmonic 12th? This is not uncommon. When faced with same, I sometimes have better luck panning the blend hard left or right...it's usually the neck pickup.

Riis

 

[Prodigus Filius]

pics of the taper going over the saddle are helpful. From top and side. To gauge, as per michael_t's post, how far the taper extends beyond the saddle

 

[konaaayukeeenee]

How long is the taper at the ball end in relation to the saddle. Is it just long enough to clear the saddle, or does it extend quite a bit beyond the saddle? I ask because, based on my experience, the taper that's too long can cause intonation issues.

pics of the taper going over the saddle are helpful. From top and side. To gauge, as per michael_t's post, how far the taper extends beyond the saddle

The tapered portion goes for about 1.5cm past the saddle.

If the tuner needle never reaches some semblance of stability, your #'s are no good. There is no "close enough". What's the tuner in question? Which is most stable: open string, fretted 12th, or harmonic 12th? This is not uncommon. When faced with same, I sometimes have better luck panning the blend hard left or right...it's usually the neck pickup.

Riis

I'm using a Boss TU-3S. Yeah, the most 'stable' reading I could was going to neck pickup with the tone rolled off and playing a very slightly muted open string. I think the most stable was fretted 12th, open was definitely most unstable.

 

[michael_t]

The tapered portion goes for about 1.5cm past the saddle.

1.5cm may be a little too long.

Good...

Not so good...

 

[Zooberwerx]

I'm using a Boss TU-3S. Yeah, the most 'stable' reading I could was going to neck pickup with the tone rolled off and playing a very slightly muted open string. I think the most stable was fretted 12th, open was definitely most unstable.

What about the 12th harmonic which is pretty much an essential for intonation? Open string is kinda worthless.

Riis

 

[Prodigus Filius]

The tapered portion goes for about 1.5cm past the saddle.



I'm using a Boss TU-3S. Yeah, the most 'stable' reading I could was going to neck pickup with the tone rolled off and playing a very slightly muted open string. I think the most stable was fretted 12th, open was definitely most unstable.

And that maybe the problem as michael_t has mentioned.
I don't think the non tapered section of string should extend beyond the saddle by more than 1/4 an inch. Less is better. Say 1/8th. Grab some nuts or tubing that will extend the ball end of the string from the rear of the bridge for the required distance, so that the non tapered section of string is brought back towards the saddle and be just clear of any contact. And see how that goes.

DIY taper on a .145 nickel round wound. The 12th fret harmonic matching the fretted 12th perfectly. Every pitch from open to 20th fret matches every other octave and unison of itself on entire fretboard. Note how non tapered string is clear, but still close to saddle

 

[konaaayukeeenee]

Alright, I've put the string back on to check:

1.5cm may be a little too long.

Doesn't seem as long as the second picture but also not quite as short as the ideal one...

What about the 12th harmonic which is pretty much an essential for intonation? Open string is kinda worthless.

Riis

Actually, slightly muted, both seem similarly stable

Unmuted, both are unstable but the harmonic is maybe slightly more often 'stable' than the fretted note (still oscillates quite a bit but within a smaller range and at a lower frequency).

 

[Afc70]

I’ll never used tapered strings again, for the same reasons. Terribly hard to intonate, really warbly sound above the 12th fret. And from my past experiences with them, just a weak sounding design of string, especially with a low B. That’s why Keith Roscoe does not recommend using tapered strings on his basses.
I had bought a used Ken smith 5 string several years ago, with tapered strings, and it sounded awful above the 12th fret.. warbly & way out of tune.. I ended up putting a set of pure blues 45-130 on it, and it was a drastic improvement. Much better overall low B, without any issues. Plus I think it looks visually absurd, having to raise the bridge saddles up so high, when using tapered strings.

 

[Yahboy]

NYXL multiscale set with tapped B and E string has no intonation issue on my ibanez SRMS 725.

 

[zortation]

The effective string length (string at full diameter) on a tapered or exposed core is basically shorter than the scale length.

With tapercores I 've had the best luck with D'Addario Pro Steels

 

[Dynacord]

Given the oscillation, have you tried lowering the pickups on the B string side?

 

[Zooberwerx]

Alright, I've put the string back on to check:


Doesn't seem as long as the second picture but also not quite as short as the ideal one...

View attachment 7432253


Actually, slightly muted, both seem similarly stable

Unmuted, both are unstable but the harmonic is maybe slightly more often 'stable' than the fretted note (still oscillates quite a bit but within a smaller range and at a lower frequency).

Not concerned about the "muted" aspect or character. Does the 12th fretted = 12th harmonic suggesting proper intonation? Tuner reading should be steady & stable...wild swings are worthless.

Riis

 

[sawzalot]

Looks to me like your pickups are very close to the B string, which would cause exactly this problem. Try lowering the pickups significantly to see if that fixes it, and then gradually raise them until they sound the way you want them to.

 

[micguy]

OK, my question is: how often do you play your B string above the 12th fret? If I get decent intonation to the 12th fret on the B string, that's good for me.

And yes, you may need to back your pickups off the string. A 120 B string is pretty low in tension - 33 inch scale length makes that a bit worse - low frequency, low tension strings do not play well when the pickups are close.

 

[konaaayukeeenee]

And that maybe the problem as michael_t has mentioned.
I don't think the non tapered section of string should extend beyond the saddle by more than 1/4 an inch. Less is better. Say 1/8th. Grab some nuts or tubing that will extend the ball end of the string from the rear of the bridge for the required distance, so that the non tapered section of string is brought back towards the saddle and be just clear of any contact. And see how that goes.

I don't have anything on hand at the moment but I'll give it a shot when I find something suitable.

Given the oscillation, have you tried lowering the pickups on the B string side?

Looks to me like your pickups are very close to the B string, which would cause exactly this problem. Try lowering the pickups significantly to see if that fixes it, and then gradually raise them until they sound the way you want them to.

Lowering the pickups improved it a lot!

Not concerned about the "muted" aspect or character. Does the 12th fretted = 12th harmonic suggesting proper intonation? Tuner reading should be steady & stable...wild swings are worthless.

Riis

Now that the pickup's been lowered, both are much more stable. The 12th fretted is a little sharper than the 12th harmonic.

OK, my question is: how often do you play your B string above the 12th fret? If I get decent intonation to the 12th fret on the B string, that's good for me.

About as much as I play below the 12th! So often enough that the sharp-sounding notes are bothering me.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Now that the pickup's been lowered, both are much more stable. The 12th fretted is a little sharper than the 12th harmonic.

Fix it...or does that cause a problem elsewhere?

Riis

 

[konaaayukeeenee]

Fix it...or does that cause a problem elsewhere?

Riis

Notes are still noticeabley sharp above the 12th fret.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Notes are still noticeabley sharp above the 12th fret.

Were you able to intonate so 12th fretted = 12th harmonic? That would be step #1 as you mentioned "The 12th fretted is a little sharper than the 12th harmonic." That will hose-up the balance of the fingerboard. If the conventional approach is ineffective, shelve it and use the 12th harmonic vs 7th fretted vs 17th fretted...this will require some compromises.

As others have mentioned, I rarely explore past the 7th fret / B string.

Riis