Tapered string out of tune with itself

[chunkstyle_mm]

Hi all, I had a problem recently and I was able to figure out a solution by searching talkbass, but it was information gleaned from a number of different threads, so I'm going to write up what happened and what I did about it so if someone else has the same problem, it might save them a little time.

tl;dr:

DR long-necks don't seem to be suited for a Carvin SB5000 without a little jury-rigging.

Ok, here goes...

I recently got a Carvin SB5000 and I love it. It's replaced my 15+ yr old MIM Fender P/J Special as my main axe. I played a couple of gigs with it to *make* myself get used to it using the stock Carvin strings (LaBella-made custom nickel set, as I understand it), but I found I really missed my DR hi-beams so I got a set from bassstringsonline.com (which I highly recommend) and I also got a single 130 gauge tapered (DR long neck since there's not a tapered hi-beam) B string since the stock B was tapered and I didn't want to deal with a massive intonation/string height change. (I've since read that the saddles are expecting a tapered string, and a non-tapered string would involve more adjustments than I care to deal with). The string change made the SB5000 sound even more fantastic, so I was pleased.

However, I found that when I started recording some stuff, *something* was out of tune. I investigated further and realized that it was the B string. Specifically, the further up the neck I played on it, the worse it got. A single note would be out of tune with itself. After searching talkbass (and a few other online resources, but mostly talkbass), I came to the conclusion that the taper length was too long at the bridge and the pickup was registering not only the vibration of the full part of the string, but also the smaller tapered end, and the multiple notes being sounded as a result were causing the issue. This is my first experience with tapered strings in over 20 years of playing, so I'm kind of just making it up as I go along here.

I compared the DR long-neck to the stock string and found that the taper was indeed longer on the DR:

(top: DR bottom: stock)

I put the stock strings back on and the problem went away. I wasn't sure if it was the taper length or a bad string, so I emailed DR strings, and Steve in support was very helpful and sent me a new string to make sure it wasn't a defect. I got it yesterday and installed it, and found the same problem. The taper length on the new string wasn't as long, but it was still longer than the stock string, so I concluded that's the issue. I'm a total DR fanboy, I've been using hi-beams for years, so I really wanted to be able to have those without a radically different sounding B, so I did the following:

Fortunately, the ball ends from the existing nickel strings fit around that string. Hopefully this works, because there's no going back now:

Now, if this is a commonly known thing that everyone who knows what they're doing does, I don't want to know about it because I feel super clever right now since it worked:

I have the tapered part coming across the bridge, but there's hardly any excess, which is perfect. The ringing is gone, and my B sounds growly and mean like I want. This happened though, but I'm not too worried about it:

Now, if there is a compelling reason for why I should not be doing this, PLEASE let me know.

During my initial investigation, I found that stringing through the body vs through the bridge made no difference - the point at which the string came across the bridge was the same. I took this shot to compare how it was vs how it is (I strung the first DR through the bridge and the replacement DR is through the body):

As you can see, the taper extended almost to the edge of the bridge pickup.

Another benefit of this was that the string winding at the post did not include any of the full part of the string, as it had previously:

If there are unforseen consequences to doing this, I'd love to know them because I have a show this weekend, and I'd hate for something to happen mid-gig. Otherwise, I hope someone else can benefit from my hair-rending and teeth-gnashing.

 

[ixlramp]

the pickup was registering not only the vibration of the full part of the string, but also the smaller tapered end, and the multiple notes being sounded as a result were causing the issue.

No, the 'Out of tune with itself' tone is 'inharmonicity' = harmonics out of tune with fundamental, and is caused by an overly long length of tapered section in the vibrating length. The less a string is full gauge from saddle to nut the less it vibrates harmonically. As you play higher up the neck the proportion of tapered section to full gauge rises and intensifies the problem. Strings are normally a constant gauge from saddle to nut, that is what creates harmonic vibration.

Also, the thinner the tapered section the worse the problem, so exposed core is more prone to this problem. The key is a short and fat taper, ideally more than half of full gauge.

So you have solved this by minimising the length of tapered section in the vibrating length, well done man Many players don't realise this and then complain about tapered strings sounding bad, it's actually the design of the string which is bad, the taper is actually good for tone if minimised.

Many tapered strings have the taper too long, this is done for the commercial interest of fitting as many different types of bridge as possible. Circle K Strings are designed with only a 1.625" tapered length to minimise inharmonicity:
Link Removed
Link Removed

 

[SLaPiNFuNK]

Long necks are ideal for thru body stringing or on instruments with three point bridges like a Warwick. On these types of instruments the taper is normally too short.

 

[Mike M.]

Long necks are ideal for thru body stringing or on instruments with three point bridges like a Warwick. On these types of instruments the taper is normally too short.

So the DR Long Necks would work and should sound good strung thru the body on a Fender American Standard 5 string Jazz Bass?

 

[SLaPiNFuNK]

It depends on the size of the thru-body. Since instrument constructions are all different it will always vary.

 

[chunkstyle_mm]

I'm stringing thru-body on my Carvin, and the length was the same as when top-loaded. I'm happy with my solution for the moment, but I may play around on BSO and order some different tapered B string brands to see if there's a better option.

 

[zortation]

It's the design of the string. Essentially, all taper core and exposed core strings are like using a shorter string when a longer one is required. So in your case, you can see that the full diameter of the string doesn't start until well after it leaves the saddle. This becomes the effective string length. It's like putting a 33" inch string on a 34" scale bass. Your description of the problem getting worse as you play up the neck is exactly what happens, the string becomes shorter as you fret higher and as a result, the "missing string length" gets worse by a percentage.

This is a well known problem and if you're one of those people who notice the problems associated with it (chorusing, inharmonicity etc.), then nothing but a set of full wrap strings will fix it. I went through the very same thing with Fbass strings.

 

[SLaPiNFuNK]

I'm stringing thru-body on my Carvin, and the length was the same as when top-loaded. I'm happy with my solution for the moment, but I may play around on BSO and order some different tapered B string brands to see if there's a better option.

I believe the Carvin like the Fenders does not add a lot of required length of the string when using the Thru Body option. (on some models at least). The Ball Ends go deep in side the body where there are some basses where the Ball End sits closer to the back like yours does with the "washers" in place.

Carvin may make their basses like this so it is possible to work with "standard" tapered strings (I say Standard as it seems most companies make their tapers to be 2.25-2.5" long).

 

[Honch]

I think this is an ingenious solution. Sorry, this thread seems "half old" but not so much that it is a bump. Half a year is within reason.

However, I find it peculiar that your ball ends (the extras) would fit into a thick B-string. Those I have (DRs) will fit the G,D,A strings but not the (my) .130 thick b-string. I do have a Dingwall with multiscale, but anyway, DR makes these strings, and I would love to retract that ball end too, sometimes.

I think, if bass manufacturers that makes separate bridge and strings holders, could actually make some ...or really... steal something from the headless basses design. That you have some kind of "fine tuners" at the back were you can have different ball ends, so the starting point for any exposed core, open core, or tapered could be made at the actuall bridge. The you tune up at normal, at the headstock. The main thing is that taking measures for that the taper doesn't start to creep over at the nut, when doing this. I find it peculiar why the piano string design (open core at both ends) will not be successful at any bass guitar really. I do think that the option to be able to carry different string gauges neglects this. If an open core would be running through the nut too, you're quite stuck with one gauge unless you can't alter the nuts height easily.

I've tried the trick you provided us with above, but the ball ends didn't fit around the thick b. The hole diameter is too small. But all things considered, I wonder why tapered strings are made anyway, since it's so special to which basses, and anchoring of string method is used. The basses are too different out there to have a "one-taper-fits-all".

The open or exposed CORE strings, by, say, Rotosound are probably better, but much more unwieldy and finicky. You can set and cut the distance to bridge by yourself. As it is now, the advantages of any tapered string doesn't overcome the disadvantages IMHO. You have to use one special made custom set for each one of your bass guitar depending on how it is designed at the bridge.

 

[mmbongo]

Just curious...why use a tapered string at all in this case? A normal DR HiBeam .130 would work just fine strung through body.

 

[chunkstyle_mm]

Just curious...why use a tapered string at all in this case? A normal DR HiBeam .130 would work just fine strung through body.

My bass came from the factory with a tapered B string, and I didn't want to mess with success (other than using the type of strings I know I like) regarding the action or intonation. I'd also read that heavier gauge non-tapered strings (specifically, the DR .130) don't actually fit in the saddle. I'd read comments where people said they had to squeeze the string with pliers to get it to fit into the saddle properly, and that didn't sound like something I wanted to do.

I've tried the trick you provided us with above, but the ball ends didn't fit around the thick b. The hole diameter is too small.

I tried 3 different sets of strings I had lying around, and only one had ball-ends large enough to work, and they were the strings I was replacing (stock Carvin strings), so there was no going back if I boned it royally. When it comes time to change these strings again, I'll absolutely be saving my ball ends for this purpose.

 

[Honch]

Thank you Chunkstyle. Then I know. I wonder if all this businesses with tapered is a catch 22, or a reverse sort of, "if the mountain didn't come to muhammed, muhammed had to go to the mountain" or whatever the saying is . Why make any 5 string bass with the same bridge saddle width as the rest of the strings, are any 5 string below 120 in gauge?

They know this from the start on, that the 5th B string is going to be thick. And then some. And they better do not try to shove it down my throat that "it's for high C strings, then that saddle would have a regular E string there". If it's big enough, an e-string will be able to reside there without any problems as well. It should always be made for low B, and these gauges from .120 and up to at least 135, 140, 150.

I do not find tapered strings that valid at all since it all depends on how much space there is behind the actual bridge point to ball end. Through body? Back at the end of the body (Warwick style). Any other style? If the actual "kink" or border, where the taper happens to go into the thicker gauge be at the same place as you perfect intonation point you either have to comprimise these things. I mean where the joint is. Dingwall has tapered sets but they are really tailored and customized for their fanned frets basses, and anchors the strings similarily. Always the same space from the bridge saddle to ball end.

I do have had similar problems, that the tone is gone, and inharmonies present in tapered. I even moved the saddle in front of the tapered area, just to raise it up in action a bit, and leaving the intonation totally off for a while, and the open strings rang longer and when you looked at the strings vibration, it was an even elliptical circle that just went on and on, just like the thin g-string (with not taper). I then moved the saddle back, and let it have that taper again, intonated it, and while it intonated, all other stray harmonics came creeping into any note fretted on that string, and open string too.