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TARA Labs cable challenge!!

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#581
Hawkeye said:
In my audio system, I have never spent a penney on any upgraded power cable, interconnect, or speaker cable until I auditioned it in my system first. Good dealers will always let you have an in-home audition, because they know how system-dependent so many cables are.

I have auditioned many cables in my high-end two channel system. Apart from frequency response effects (which many cables have) there were differences between all of them, with some clearly standing out from the crowd.
Click to expand...

What cables do you use in your bass rig? What power cables do you use?

I like your point about our senses and resolution differing among people. A blind test is still the only way to go though. At school for my Consumer Problems class we had blindfolded people taste diffeerent brands of foods and drinks, there were a few surprising results. An inexpensive common beer (Bud I think) was generally preferred over the others but a few experts could tell you exactly what brand they were drinking. For commodities like sugar and salt people said there was no discernible difference. I think of cables as commodities, but I do understand there are people with more refined senses willing to pay for a special version of a commodity that may taste a bit different to them, like sea salt or organic cane sugar. If a chef w/ high resolution taste buds makes me a soup w/ sea salt instead of regular salt, can I tell? No. Is the chef happier using sea salt? Probably. Can the average audience member appreciate the tone of a $250 cable? No, but if you can tell the difference and it makes you happy then go for it.

Random semi-related thought -- If you electrocute yourself with a $500 power cable, does it feel different than electrocuting yourself with a Walmart extension cord?
 
#584
Hawkeye said:
Unfortunately, this is the default position of the "empirical set" who cannot hear differences in cable. There are only a few reasons for not being able to hear differences in cable.

1. Your aural acuity is not sensitive enough to allow you to hear the difference and pride or fragile self esteem does not allow you to accept the fact that other people can.

2. You have a predisposition to the opinion that "audiophiles are quacks to begin with" and you "convince" yourself that there are no differences.

3. Your equipment is of a sufficiently low level of resolution, so that it does not allow you to hear differences.

4. Your equipment is of a sufficiently HIGH level of resolution (amp / preamp / guitar preamp / pickups / speakers etc) so that if there are differences, they are minute in comparison to the surpassing excellent performance of the rest of the signal chain.

5. The claims of some premium cable companies use dubious science and "made-up" terminology to explain the distinguishing characteristics of their product and it just bugs you. This one is TRUE, you do see some pretty strange claims in the advertising of some companies. After all, this is a profitable product category and there are many players in it. The product positioning of some companies is just more believable than others.

I find it curious that those who cannot hear differences in cables are so hell-bent on "debunking" the concept and trying their best to convince others that if they can't hear differences than neither can anybody else. I think they fail to actually experiment or learn from the experiences of others who obviously do hear differences.

One of the typical responses of cable difference naysayers is that "people convince themselves there is an improvement because they spent a lot of money and need to justify their expenditure".

Phooey!

In my audio system, I have never spent a penney on any upgraded power cable, interconnect, or speaker cable until I auditioned it in my system first. Good dealers will always let you have an in-home audition, because they know how system-dependent so many cables are.

I have auditioned many cables in my high-end two channel system. Apart from frequency response effects (which many cables have) there were differences between all of them, with some clearly standing out from the crowd.

Capacitance, inductance, materials, gauge, insulation / dielectric, terminations all work together to carry the electrical signal. Some combinations of all these factors work better than others and work even better in some systems vs. others. In fact, cables are extremely system dependent, and what sounds great on what system may not yield the same results in another.

There is no hard and fast rule. Input and output impedances vary according to each manufacturer. Some equipment just lights up and outperforms when you put high quality cables on it and some equipment doesn't sound much different at all.

If you can't hear differences (improvements) by using expensive audiophile cable, then you've saved some money. Go buy some new strings or a striking new strap.

Science has yet to think up a measurement or test for every single aspect of audio signal reproduction. There are things yet to be discovered where only future technology will yield the measurements that some individuals crave before they will trust their ears.

If you can't trust your ears, see points 1-4.
Click to expand...
AFLAC!
:hiding: ;) ;) :D
 
#585
jondog said:
What cables do you use in your bass rig? What power cables do you use?
Click to expand...

You got me. I admit to being a hypocrite in regard to the cabling on my bass rig.

I'm using a "good" quality 1/4 inch instrument cable and a 16 guage generic speaker cable from my SVT3 Pro to my Peavey 115 BVX BW. BUT... with the teeny, tiny internal cabling on my cab being a weak link, it wouldn't be a cost effective upgrade for me to upgrade the speaker cable until I install some decent 14 g or 12g. inside and upgraded the screw fasteners to T-nuts or something like that.

Now, in my 2-channel stereo system (Linn Genki CD Player, VTL TL2.5 tube preamp, Bryston 3BSST power amp, Linn Keilidh speakers), I use a Chang Lightspeed power conditioner, PS Audio 'PLUS' and 'Prelude' power cables, Van Den Hul Inspiration Hybrid bi-wired speaker cable, and Van Den Hul Integration Hybrid interconnects. All of which probably came to about $2,000.00, but which is well-balanced in a system that is worth around $13,000 Cdn.

My Peavey cab is not the last word in high and mid-frequency detail, so there are other improvements I can make that would be more substantial and cost-effective right now than cabling.

My advice is to get the amplification and speakers right first. Cabling can be the icing on the cake for an upper-end bass rig, but may not be the best investment when running an inexpensive or mid-priced rig like mine.
 
#587
Hawkeye said:
Unfortunately, this is the default position of the "empirical set" who cannot hear differences in cable. There are only a few reasons for not being able to hear differences in cable.

1. Your aural acuity is not sensitive enough to allow you to hear the difference and pride or fragile self esteem does not allow you to accept the fact that other people can.

2. You have a predisposition to the opinion that "audiophiles are quacks to begin with" and you "convince" yourself that there are no differences.

3. Your equipment is of a sufficiently low level of resolution, so that it does not allow you to hear differences.

4. Your equipment is of a sufficiently HIGH level of resolution (amp / preamp / guitar preamp / pickups / speakers etc) so that if there are differences, they are minute in comparison to the surpassing excellent performance of the rest of the signal chain.

5. The claims of some premium cable companies use dubious science and "made-up" terminology to explain the distinguishing characteristics of their product and it just bugs you. This one is TRUE, you do see some pretty strange claims in the advertising of some companies. After all, this is a profitable product category and there are many players in it. The product positioning of some companies is just more believable than others.

I find it curious that those who cannot hear differences in cables are so hell-bent on "debunking" the concept and trying their best to convince others that if they can't hear differences than neither can anybody else. I think they fail to actually experiment or learn from the experiences of others who obviously do hear differences.

One of the typical responses of cable difference naysayers is that "people convince themselves there is an improvement because they spent a lot of money and need to justify their expenditure".

Phooey!

In my audio system, I have never spent a penney on any upgraded power cable, interconnect, or speaker cable until I auditioned it in my system first. Good dealers will always let you have an in-home audition, because they know how system-dependent so many cables are.

I have auditioned many cables in my high-end two channel system. Apart from frequency response effects (which many cables have) there were differences between all of them, with some clearly standing out from the crowd.

Capacitance, inductance, materials, gauge, insulation / dielectric, terminations all work together to carry the electrical signal. Some combinations of all these factors work better than others and work even better in some systems vs. others. In fact, cables are extremely system dependent, and what sounds great on what system may not yield the same results in another.

There is no hard and fast rule. Input and output impedances vary according to each manufacturer. Some equipment just lights up and outperforms when you put high quality cables on it and some equipment doesn't sound much different at all.

If you can't hear differences (improvements) by using expensive audiophile cable, then you've saved some money. Go buy some new strings or a striking new strap.

Science has yet to think up a measurement or test for every single aspect of audio signal reproduction. There are things yet to be discovered where only future technology will yield the measurements that some individuals crave before they will trust their ears.

If you can't trust your ears, see points 1-4.
Click to expand...
Let's say that you can hear the difference in how cables carrying full-range audio signal sound. I don't doubt that capacitance and other issues can alter the sound. The idiots are the ones that somehow believe the manufacturing costs for the "superior" cables are orders of magnitude higher than good quality cables. The high-end cable makers are taking advantage of those who, like yourself, believe that they can hear the difference in a cable and are will to pay whatever the asking price is. Audio input and patch cables, maybe. Speaker cables, highly doubtful. Power cables, now there's where the hyper-gullible come in. I think the whole thrust of this thread is about a power cable that cost something like $1,200. Now, anyone who thinks that they can hear a difference in the output of a high-end audio system between two different power cords of the same gauge would fall in the moron category.

And there you have it, I have spoken, and that's all I'm going to say on this topic.


Maybe.
 
#588
Munjibunga said:
I think the whole thrust of this thread is about a power cable that cost something like $1,200. Now, anyone who thinks that they can hear a difference in the output of a high-end audio system between two different power cords of the same gauge would fall in the moron category.
Click to expand...
Exactly! Somewhere along the line Speaker cables and Line cables (a totally different Ballgame) got dragged in here.
 
#589
Munjibunga said:
... Power cables, now there's where the hyper-gullible come in. I think the whole thrust of this thread is about a power cable that cost something like $1,200. Now, anyone who thinks that they can hear a difference in the output of a high-end audio system between two different power cords of the same gauge would fall in the moron category.
....
Click to expand...

Well stated Munji - the power signal is only as clean as the weakest link in the power chain - likely the house wiring of any hall you are playing in. :D

Guys, remember that the receptacle you plug into at most venues is likely a $1.98 item, wired with cheap unshielded copper wire (hopefully according to the local electrical code) by an electrician making less than $20/hr. That's the best case!

The power connector in your amp is likely a $2.00 item as well, assembled by a minimum wage factory worker. The power supply in your amp is designed to convert the AC signal to clean DC (unless it is a switched supply, which converts it to high frequency pulses), thus effectively eliminating external power noise outside of major ones (lightning, brownout, etc) that the cable has no effect on. Similarly, the switched supply effectively ensures no noise from the cord gets through.

All of this mean that the power cord, at $1200.00 or $2.00, has no measurable effect on your sound except in the event of catastrophic failure (i.e. it shorts intermittently, has a high resistance fault or breaks). A $2.00 one will do just fine.

If you insist on paying $1000's go ahead - I've got some for sale at that price... ;)

Just an electrical engineer's opinion.
 
#590
Man, am I gonna P.O. a few people here.
I work for a robotics company that produces cable as well. We actually draw the copper strand for the cable.
The ONLY reason for a power cable to cost $1200 is because A) they know people will pay it B) their total order was a "short" run (ie.a few hundred feet) so their price was adjusted to that.
The stranding (how many actual strands of wire), type of copper OFC ect.. to be honest do not matter a great deal. It does but not to the degree that you think.
We also have an audio division in Europe. You should here the conversations I have with those guys about subjects like this. You would loose your mind thinking about all the money you wasted.
The best thing I've heard latly is these guys ripping apart CAT5 cable an using it for interconnects and speaker cable.CAT5 cable is the cheapest, lowest grade, bottom of the barrel garbage you can make. But these "audio philes" as they call themselves think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

This is the bottom line from or engr's on this: Use a nice heavy gauge wire for speaker cable, not "zip cord" but something at least 12g with Speakons if you can, a nice sheilded cable for your interconnect between the bass/amp to reduce microphonics from cable movement and RF (ie, a Beldin guitar cable or the like).
There is a difference, but in a bass rig you will never hear it. Our speakers and amps are not capable of reproducing what advantages there may actually be.

I'm not bashing those who claim you can here a difference, but blind folded, you can't. At least not through a bass rig. And you have a 50/50 chance to get it right. Even a blind squirrel will find a nut every now and then.

You home system, maybe, but still, unless you have your living room treated, typically, it's gonna be a wash.
 
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