TARA Labs cable challenge!!

[paulraphael]

I said nothing about hearing differences between different audio gear, and neither did you.

For the purpose of this discussion I'm considering the wire to be gear.

We're talking about hearing differences in something that has no measurable difference, or at least certainly not any measureable audible difference nor any scientific explanation for how it could result in any difference between the wall electrical supply and the output of typical audio gear.

Which means there are two possibilities: 1) there are no important differences; or 2) there are other significant qualities that may be measurable, but we don't know about them so we're not measuring them.

The history of science and technology is full of examples of both.

If you can truly hear a difference, you're well into the realm of the paranormal -

"Paranormal" is reserved for things that are presumed to exist outside the realm of natural laws. It does not apply to things governed by natural laws in ways that we simply don't understand yet.

If it did, then all scientists would be paranormal investigators, because they get paid every week to investigate things that we currently do not have a natural explanation for.

By contrast, reading your thoughts might be quite simple - "Wow, that's a nice cable ... heavy, black ... I'll bet it sounds better in the lows ... mmmm $80 caaaable .... niiiiceee thiiiiick bassssss."

Actually, I was totally skeptical. I didn't want to hear an improvement. As far as equating improvements with money or looks, eventually I ended up trading in a fat $80 cable for skinny $45 cable, because the cheaper one sounded better to me.

Seriously, if you can do it by all means get thee to a lab and prove it ...

Look, I'm not in the wire evangelism business. You can listen to whatever you like and it won't bother me. The reason I'm posting all this is because I had the exact same reactions to this cable business as you did. The only difference is that I decided to put my assumptions to the test and see what would happen. Not to prove anything to myself or to the world, but because I was curious.

What annoys me isn't that people don't agree about wires (who cares?) but because there is always so much vehement prejudice that masquerades as science. If you ask any of these questions to a psychoachoustics researcher, you'll get an honest answer: they'll say, "I don't know, I'd have to do an experiment." That's what science is about, not about presumptuously declaring things impossible.

 

[DWBass]

Wow! 32 pages, close to 3 years and still no proof! Completely laughable and pointless by now!

 

[paulraphael]

Wow! 32 pages, close to 3 years and still no proof! Completely laughable and pointless by now!

Show me another discussion on a music message board where someone is offering "proof" of anything. This isn't a scientific journal, and most of us aren't researchers.

If anyone really cares enough, it's not that hard to go somewhere and try out some cables, in the same spirit that you'd you'd try out a bass or an amp. If you don't hear any differences, or you're not impressed by the ones you hear, then that's just one more thing in life to cross off your list.

What's baffling isn't lack of proof, it's that it's turned into a holy war.

 

[patrickj]

Show me another discussion on a music message board where someone is offering "proof" of anything. This isn't a scientific journal, and most of us aren't researchers.

If anyone really cares enough, it's not that hard to go somewhere and try out some cables, in the same spirit that you'd you'd try out a bass or an amp. If you don't hear any differences, or you're not impressed by the ones you hear, then that's just one more thing in life to cross off your list.

What's baffling isn't lack of proof, it's that it's turned into a holy war.

You're new here so you don't appreciate the significance of this thread. This Tara Labs cable thing (drama, soap opera, flame war - whatever) has been going on for 3+ years. The frustrating bit for a lot of people is that
the resulting data (whatever way it points) was never posted - by either the original person who borrowed the cables or by the electronics guy

So basically, you've got A LOT of forum members here who have been hanging on the edge of their seat for 3+ years (well, sort of) waiting for ANY kind of result, and still nothing.

Not that the result is really that important, it's just the principal of the thing. We've had a lot of community wide things like this (people ship basses, gear, fx, cables, whatever) to a bunch of users and everyone posts on it. It's what makes this a better community than most.


To sum up, it's not the contents of the answer so much as there's just not been an answer.

 

[DWBass]

Show me another discussion on a music message board where someone is offering "proof" of anything. This isn't a scientific journal, and most of us aren't researchers.

Then why has this discussion gone on so long? Come on, I wish you guys would just stop with these baited arguments! You want to pay good money for a 'really nice looking' cable or cord, that's your perogative but please don't come here and insult our intelligence! Your protagonistic views and opinions on these cords/cables have pretty much made Tara Labs cables the biggest farce this decade has produced!

 

[Richard Lindsey]

If you ask any of these questions to a psychoachoustics researcher, you'll get an honest answer: they'll say, "I don't know, I'd have to do an experiment." That's what science is about, not about presumptuously declaring things impossible.

No, not entirely. Part of the point of sciences is establishing things *so that you don't have to do an experiment every time you wonder something*. IOW, so as not to reinvent the wheel. No good scientist does an experiment every time someone asks him/her something basic. Who has time for that, and why should you bother? There are some things that science has established as pretty certain, and there's no scientist who doesn't take such things for granted. A huge part of science is to reduce the number of unknown things. Not to treat everything as unknown every time. Now, it's true that sometimes dearly held theories turn out to be wrong. But it's important to remember that what shows these theories to be wrong is NOT some semi-plausible theory that has no evidence behind it, and NOT some half-assed poorly done experiment, of the sort common in audiophile mags. It's real, trustworthy data that the prevailing theory lacks the power to explain. I see no such data in the power cable debate.

It's not as if cables have never been studied scientifically. They have. There is, therefore, a presumption that certain things are true and others are not, and there are good reasons for that presumption. This is perfectly scientific. To ask somebody to abandon that presumption without any decent data is NOT scientific. Now, if you (or anybody) can provide good data to suggest that someone can reliably and reproducibly hear particular differences between power cables in a properly conducted ABX study, then that would be something that could necessitate rethinking the prevailing theory. If such data exist, I for one would cheerfully change my mind. But without such data, to argue for the existence of such differences is not scientific. I mean, we can all hear what we think we hear, and say what we want about it, but if you claim something that appears to fly against what's known without offering much if anything in the way of backup, you gotta expect opposition.

 

[paulraphael]

No, not entirely. Part of the point of sciences is establishing things *so that you don't have to do an experiment every time you wonder something*. IOW, so as not to reinvent the wheel. No good scientist does an experiment every time someone asks him/her something basic.

This is all very true. And it's true that signal cables have been studied to death. However, they've been studied with very different simple and practical goals in mind concerning the transmission of information, not concernting making music sound good. Primarily, research has focussed on the preservation of information in terms of signal strength and frequency response (and I've never heard of research done on power cords and their effect on audio phenomena).

If were believed by psychoacoustic researchers that the QUALITY of sound was influenced by these factors and none other, then they would say there's already a theory in place, at least for signal-carrying cables. However, research has shown that there are still a lot of unknowns involved in what makes us perceive sounds the way we do. Since we have not yet quantified all the elements of sound that are important to the perception of audio quality, there's a lot we still don't know how to test the cables for.

Even if a new metric were identified, I'm not sure where all the research money would come from. Probably not from the National Institute of Health or from NASA! And I don't know why the cable companies would foot the bill. They've figured out empirically how to make things sound good, and their sales people have found a way sell just about anything, good or bad (yes, I would agree with anyone who says there are some ridiculously overpriced cables out there).

In the interests of my own curiosity, I'll see if i can talk someone into giving me a simplified blind test with my own stereo--to see if i can still tell the difference between my current mid-priced cords and stock cords. I'd eat some crow if I can't, but then again I'd pick up $50 or so on ebay.

 

[Akami]

Catching wind of this thread (pun?), Tara probably threatened QSC with legalness.

Well maybe...

But really, how hard would it be for him to show up one more time here, especially since he wanted so much to take part in the testing, and knew how much everyone was hanging just waiting for his findings.

Just come on and tell everyone he didn't do anything, or that he did and what his opinion was.

No doubt it would be more interesting than what raphael has to say; I mean really, who cares about a turtles opinion concerning power cords when we all know that the only thing they're qualified to speak about is pizza!

 

[Hawkeye]

Show me another discussion on a music message board where someone is offering "proof" of anything. This isn't a scientific journal, and most of us aren't researchers.

What's baffling isn't lack of proof, it's that it's turned into a holy war.

Man, I've got to give you A for effort. You have consistently presented a rational and polite explanation of the naysayers prejudice and how that very prejudice means they can't even acknowledge the truth of your very lucid and articulate arguments about the nature of the scientific method. I want to be on your debate team.

As many have found out through their own experimentation, in their own way, there are differences in the sound of cables. You know how I know? I have heard them. The fact that the current level of psychoacoustic scientific understanding doesn't yet have a reliable method of duplicating the ear's ability to differentiate, measure and articulate these differences means squat to me.

Traditional science tells us that humans cannot recognize differences in sound that are under 3db in relative levels. Yet, we know that mastering engineers can tell the difference in the relative level of sounds that vary by as little as .5db. Ray Charles was said to be able to recognize a difference of .25db in levels (read the latest copy of Electronic Musician). I say this only to offer the obvious observation that some people have better ears (and hearing) than others. I'm not saying I'm a "golden-ear" but I know what my ears tell me. If you don't happen to hear differences in cable, in your system, that's fine.

But please, why the mean-spirited fundamentalist fervor directed at those who do?

I have said this before, probably in this very thread, that if you can't hear differences in cable, then you are one of the lucky ones. Go spend your money on a nice strap or new pedal, and please don't foolishly waste it on expensive cables. Any piece of wire should do the trick for you as long as it has the prerequisite gauge / dielectric / configuration etc.

There are only a few reasons why some individuals are incapable of hearing differences in the sound of cables.

1. Your auditory acuity is insufficient to allow you to hear differences in cable (you don't hear as well as others). In order for ABX testing to be of any value, you would have to first PROVE that you have a good set of ears. This is only logical. All kinds of A-B double-blind testing has been done on audio reproduction equipment in the past. The results of these tests are often inconclusive. Does this mean that amplifier / cable / speaker A vs. B are of equal performance or does it mean that the participants were incapable of articulating valid differences because of a lack of auditory acuity? Either position is valid but most people tend to support only the one which says "I hear no difference so that means no difference exists!" No, all it means is that you didn't hear a difference.

2. Your associated equipment is of insufficient capability in terms of accuracy and does not amplify / reproduce the sound with the resolution necessary for you to actually hear the difference. Some inexpensive audio reproduction equipment doesn’t have accurate enough resolution to allow subtle auditory differences in dynamics, frequency response etc. in the upstream sound to pass through. Why does anybody upgrade equipment? Because it sounds better, not because it measures better.

3. You are prejudiced and have a preconceived opinion that no such differences exist in cables of roughly similar construction and do not acknowledge them. This is valid. Cable nay-sayers are continually claiming that individuals "fool themselves" into believing that there are differences in cables. They propose that because an individual has spent a lot of money on a cable, he programs himself to believe that it is a vast improvement and is somehow incapable of “admitting the truth”. It is an equally valid position to say that those who do not believe differences exist have somehow "fooled themselves" into this belief. They will not pay the money for upgraded cables knowing full well in advance that it’s a bunch of hog-wash and convinced of this scientific certainty program themselves to believe that they can hear no differences in A-B testing.

For anybody to agree to the above points means having to acknowledge that they either have tin ears, lousy equipment, or they're prejudiced, heck maybe all three. Who wants to admit to that? Okay, I know, Flame ON.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

There are only a few reasons why some individuals are incapable of hearing differences in the sound of cables.

You forgot one: 4. The differences may not actually exist when you test for them with any semblance of rigor.

Before you get too upset, I'll say it again: I don't believe all cables sound alike, and most of the people I think you're arguing against haven't said that either. To an extent, you're kinda tilting against a straw man here. The point is that not every difference that someone claims to hear actually exists. Not every claim of sonic superiority holds up. People can and do make mistakes, and they can and do fool themselves on occasion. The real issue here is distinguishing between those things that can actually be shown to make a difference and those that can't.

As someone said in this thread or another, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Claims that appeal to heretofore unknown laws of physics, or require apparently impossible applications of known laws, or involve ludicrous prices are extraordinary claims, and therefore require extraordinary evidence, which seems, by and large, to be lacking in the case of power cables. Anecdotal evidence is not extraordinary evidence, it's the most ordinary form of evidence there is. Hence the skepticism afforded such extraordinary claims in the absence of extraordinary evidence.

Speaking for myself, there's no skepticism I have that couldn't be overcome by good evidence. I just don't see any.

EDIT: this thread being so old, I forgot that it was mostly about *power cables,* not instrument cables or interconnects. When we say "cable," I'm not sure we're all thinking of the same cables. What I say above in this post about cables applies really to instrument cables etc, not to power cables. I don't really know of any reasons to think that any power cables make any difference at all.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

1. Your auditory acuity is insufficient to allow you to hear differences in cable (you don't hear as well as others). In order for ABX testing to be of any value, you would have to first PROVE that you have a good set of ears. This is only logical. All kinds of A-B double-blind testing has been done on audio reproduction equipment in the past. The results of these tests are often inconclusive. Does this mean that amplifier / cable / speaker A vs. B are of equal performance or does it mean that the participants were incapable of articulating valid differences because of a lack of auditory acuity? Either position is valid but most people tend to support only the one which says "I hear no difference so that means no difference exists!" No, all it means is that you didn't hear a difference.

Hey, I'm willing to admit a difference exists if ANYBODY can hear it reliably and reproducibly in a proper testing environment, with as many confounding variables as possible removed. It doesn't have to be me; I'm certain there are people who can hear better than I can. After all, I can't dunk a basketball, but I have seen rock-solid evidence to prove that it can be done.

But if there's no evidence that ANYBODY can hear a difference reliably and reproducibly in such an environment, that's where I get off the bus.

 

[DWBass]

Even if there were that tiny miniscule amount of difference in sound would it matter in any gigging situation? Any performance situation? Would it help you with auditions? Help you get any gig? I mean really, what's the value or advantage of owning an $80 AC cord that would give just a tiny miniscule amount of whatever that 99% of us normal hearing musicians, bar patrons, concert goers would never even notice? I mean really, what's the advantage? Can you guarantee me more gigs? Better gigs? Better paying situations?

 

[paulraphael]

Even if there were that tiny miniscule amount of difference in sound would it matter in any gigging situation? Any performance situation?

Not for my money. It was worth it to me for my stereo, but based on the subtlety of the difference I didn't even try it on my bass amp.

When I try some tweak on a stereo and I happen to like it, I'll ask, "would I hear this if there was a drummer and a guitar player with a marshal stack in the room?" The answer is almost always no.

I do use good quality audio cables for bass. I can't hear the difference between between the good quality speaker cable I'm using now and the cheap one I had before. Even without other musicians making noise. So if it breaks or I lose it I'll get a cheaper one.

I've tried a few different instrument cables. Right now I have an Alessandro cable. It is infinitessimally better sounding than the whirlwind cable I had before, but it cost three times as much. I won't buy another one. It might make a difference to someone who plays with more highs, but not to me. The whirlwind cable, though, sounded dramatically better than the el-cheapo one I had before it. So it seems like a good value. I forget what it cost ... I think a small step up from the bottom of the barrel.

I'd be inclined to think the expensive stuff makes more sense for recording than for gigging.

 

[Akami]

I just did a search for prices of some of the power cables these jerks are trying to get us to buy and I've just got to know what makes them think that the power cord from the wall is worth more than some peoples whole rig costs!

Any sound difference that has to be argued over as to whether it exists or not is frivolous and meaningless.

Heck, some people argue over whether or not to spring for Nordstrand or Aero pickups and if they're worth the expense, and yet no one will argue that there is no difference in the sound one would get from them.
Yet they seem cheap when you could by them for what the sales tax on some of these power cables comes to.

Here's a price from another company selling snake oil that makes the Tara stuff seem cheap.

Siltech Cables


Ruby Mountain Signature G6 $6700.00

So now everyone that got rooked into buying Tara now has to realize they bought junk and need to sell the rest of their basses and amps in order to buy the best power cord in the universe.

What a bunch of crap.

 

[paulraphael]

Any sound difference that has to be argued over as to whether it exists or not is frivolous and meaningless.

Just remember there are guys who are into their stereos the same way other guys are into their $5 million yachts.

At that point, it can become less about enjoying music and more about entertaining yourself by figuring out what to do with all those piles of surpluss cash

 

[Akami]

Just remember there are guys who are into their stereos the same way other guys are into their $5 million yachts.

At that point, it can become less about enjoying music and more about entertaining yourself by figuring out what to do with all those piles of surpluss cash

Hey I think you just hit the target market on the nailhead!

We need to think of a product for those guys too.

I'm thinking along the lines of some new special tolex that will improve the sonic resonance of both the amplifier and the speakers. Then let everyone argue over whether they heard a difference or not while I pick out my five million dollar yacht!

 

[Hawkeye]

I'm very prejudiced in favour of common-sense, logic, the laws of physics, the way things work, and previous conclusive studies.

Power cables make no difference in the final sound. Those who claim to hear one cannot prove it in proper conditions and have to aknowledge they're kidding themselves, wasted their money, and have very typically fallible auditory memory and selective hearing like everyone else, heck maybe all three. Who wants to admit that?

In all seriousness, care to explain how two different cables that carry the same amount of electricity from the wall and city wiring into a device that can't tell the difference how the juice got there so long as there's an adequate amount of it will result in audible differences much less in given frequency bands?

A/B/X. Try it sometime.

SMASH, my fellow Canuck and articulate and learned bass brother. I have tried the AB comparisons in my home stereo system (not A/B/X double-blind) and the differences in power cords were readily apparent. I have moved from stock power cords to Wireworld Stratus III's, to PS Audio PLUS & Prelude power cords in my 2-channel Linn, Bryston, VTL system. I also use a Chang 3200 MKII power filtering system. The differences are readily apparent like a perceived reduction in system noise (more "black silence") between the notes, more bass drive and punch, more articulation with subtle musical details coming through that were somewhat obscured with the stock cords less midrange haze and hardness. I've always made a practice of home-auditioning interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords in my system first before I spend a dime. That way, no justification is required to appease my bruised ego. I acknowledge that there are some snake oil salemen in the cable business and just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's better. So, I try before I buy.

My Bryston 3BSST didn't exhibit a significant improvement. It was quite subtle. Other components in my system have responded much more dramatically to the addition of upgraded power cords.

That's for my stereo system, now for my bass rig, other than putting a decent large gauge Monster speaker cable on my rig, I have yet to try upgraded power cords on my modest system because I've been buying other stuff. But one day I will for sure, just to see how my Ampeg SVTIII Pro and Genz Benz GBE600 heads respond. A lot of bass amplification is pretty low-spec in terms of construction and quality of sound compared to the high-end specialty audio world so I'm not expecting a whole lot but would not be surprised in the least if I heard an improvement. These things tend to be pretty system dependent and some components benefit from power cord upgradesmore than others. One amp may be transformed for the better and another may exhibit little to no improvement because it already has a lot of good RFI and EMI power supply filtering and rejection of noise. Some manufacturers make this a priority in their circuits and some don't.

To your question: No, I don't care to explain the theory behind the efficacy of upgraded power cords because my degree is in Theology and Counselling not Science. I would say that the burden of proof is on those who make absolute statements such as you have.

"Power cables make no difference in the final sound."

We could put the shoe on the other foot and say, why don't you try it? It's pretty easy to do. See if you have an improvement in your sound. Unfortunately though, if one cannot hear a difference that doesn't necessarily prove that no difference exists. There are two many other variables.

A-B-X testing has long been held up as some kind of holy grail of sonic differentiation by the empirical set. These are also the folks who will typically buy a stereo or other musical amplification component according to the manufacturer's specifications. The relatively short periods of time where subjects are exposed to sounds is, of necessity, a typical feature of A-B-X testing. It has long been questioned whether or not subjects can reliably tell one sound from the other during these short time spans.

Dramatic (obvious) differences are potentially highlighted to be sure, but not subtle ones. Subtle differences require a longer, extended period of time listening in a relaxed environment, and listening to familiar sounds (or songs) that you know well, in order to notice and differentiate qualitative differences resulting from the changing out of cables.

My two cents, just trying to encourage folks to have open minds and to be open to possiblities that they may not yet understand.

 

[Hawkeye]

But if there's no evidence that ANYBODY can hear a difference reliably and reproducibly in such an environment, that's where I get off the bus.

But what if You were to hear a difference and it wasn't in a double-blind test? Just you and your bass rig, you hook up an upgraded cord and say to yourself: "Hey that sounds better!" Would you take it back to the store because it had not been proved to you in a scientific test? Or..... is it possible that can you trust your own ears? That's the real question.

 

[Hawkeye]

The real issue here is distinguishing between those things that can actually be shown to make a difference and those that can't.

Speaking for myself, there's no skepticism I have that couldn't be overcome by good evidence. I just don't see any.

But, what if there doesn't yet exist a scientific test that can reliably distinguish the subtle differences that the human ear can hear but that a measurement device can't?

The last time I heard, the sum total of human knowledge doubles every 15 years. It could be that a reliable scientific test has yet to be devised that can observe and measure the subjective sonic reality that so many folks are able to hear and articulate that are due to differences in cables.

Coffee break is definitely over, back to work.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

But what if You were to hear a difference and it wasn't in a double-blind test? Just you and your bass rig, you hook up an upgraded cord and say to yourself: "Hey that sounds better!" Would you take it back to the store because it had not been proved to you in a scientific test? Or..... is it possible that can you trust your own ears? That's the real question.

I would want to test it, because it would defy plausibility. If I'm supposed to pay $$$ for something I think ought to cost $, and I know of no reason why it ought to be better, I'd certainly want some reason to think my money is well spent. In that setting, I wouldn't necessarily trust my ears, because I know of no reason to think power cables differ. I do trust my ears when, say, auditioning basses, because I have plenty of reason to know they differ.