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TARA Labs cable challenge!!

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paulraphael said:
I'm going to duck out of this thread, but before doing so want to clarify my generally feelings on the topic.

To those who believe that a power cord cannot make any significant difference in the sound of a piece of gear: you could be right. It might be shown one day that all these effects people hear are hypnotically induced by expectations, and that the prevailing understanding of the science involved answers all the relevent questions.

Or you could be wrong. There may be more to the phenomenon than what we currently understand. If anything gives credibility to this possibility, it's that two of the disciplines involved--wave propagation in wire, and human psychoachoustics--are young sciences. And there isn't a whole lot of surplus research money available for the study of fetish-level audio gear. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I only want to invite anyone who's genuinely curious about the phenomenon to try it out yourself some time. Not even scientifically ... just try it casually and see if you perceive a significant difference, a subtle one, or nothing at all. Ideally do it on a revealing stereo system, not a boom box or bass amp. If you hear no difference, then there's no point in worrying about an abx test. But if you hear something, maybe that will open your mind to some further investigation.

Or not! In the end it's not that big a deal; we're talking about wires, not nuclear proliferation.

Do keep in mind that exectations based on science have often been broken. Just a century or so ago, some of the brightest scientific minds had proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that human flight was impossible. One of them created an impressive presentation, comaparing decades of study of the physics of bird flight to the flight requirements of a heavy object. He demonstrated convincingly that the required power-to-weigh ratio could never be achieved.

His equations were all correct; a contemporary physicist auditing them, accepting his suppositions, would find his thinking sound.

But this scientist had neglected to account for two things: the discovery of the airfoil, and the larger point that an airplane is not a bird.

The science wasn't wrong. But as in many other cases in history, a prevailing understanding of science had proven too limited to be helpful. It's worth remembering this before declaring what is and isn't possible.

True enough, it's not that big a deal. It's certainly possible to obsess too much about minutiae. I'm a hell of a lot more worried about nuclear war too.;)

Still, while I have a few minutes before I go try to rework a composition that's been bugging me for months, let me say something on a point that I don't think has been addressed explicitly, and that's the necessary distinction between neutrality and objectivity.

In this setting, neutrality would mean treating any competing possibilities as potentially equally valid, and objectivity would mean treating the possibility with the most and best backing evidence as being intrinsically more plausible. Objectivity would also mean treating possibilities that have little or no good supporting evidence, or that seem actually to contradict the available evidence, as intrinsically implausible. A claim that is intrinsically implausible is an "extraordinary" claim, in the sense I mentioned in an earlier post, and therefore requires extraordinary evidence. It is therefore not at all closed-minded or antiscientific to be skeptical of such extraordinary claims in the absence of evidence. That is in fact the most rational and sensible position to take; it would be less rational to regard two possibilities as equally likely if the evidence so far overwhelmingly favors one. The only thing that would be closed-minded would be if good evidence for the opposing position were produced, and one refused to accept it out of prejudice.

As an example of the distinction between neutrality and objectivity, consider the following (admittedly exaggerated) scenario:

Hypothesis A: The sun will rise in the east tomorrow.

Hypothesis B: The sun will rise in the west tomorrow.

Question: Where will the sun rise tomorrow?

Neutral answer: Well, since it hasn't happened yet, we don't have any proof, so it could be either east or west.

Objective answer: All the available evidence says east, and none of it says west, so I'm going with east. If the sun does come up in the west tomorrow after all, I'll admit my theory is wrong, or at least incomplete, and work on revising it.

It's true that when in the course of performing an experiment, you need to be both neutral and objective. But when assessing results, what you need is to be objective. If the data point one way, then that's how they point.

How does this relate to power cables? Well, I think the assumption you and several others have seemed to make (if I'm misrepresenting this, my apologies) is that the possibility that power cables make a difference is just as intrinsically plausible as the possibility that they don't. IOW, you view the two neutrally. I (and other, it seems) view the two objectively: we believe a neutral view is not sensible in this case, because the data so far appear to strongly favor one possibility over the other. IOW, the two possibilities are not equally plausible and should not be regarded as such. If you want to convince us that what seems the less likely possibility is actually just as likely or more so, then you gotta bring some evidence.

Basically, well-supported theories deserve a presumption in their favor, and poorly supported theories do not--they deserve skepticism. That skepticism, if it is to be overcome, is overcome by good evidence, not by repeated assertions or what-ifs. I know quite well that science hasn't always gotten things right; sometimes the theory that's poorly supported at first turns out to be right. But when science fixes its own mistakes, it does so on the basis of rigorous testing, not general impressions or unsupported beliefs.
 
SMASH said:
Bull. Show me some proof that "the conclusion among many who make professional sound their business" is that A/B/X testing is in any way flawed in gauging whether people can hear differences, especially enormous ones as is claimed here. By the way, snake oil salemen in "audiophile" shops are not people who "make professional sound their business" nor are reps from companies that get raided by the feds.




That's is *NOT* relevant. First, he isn't sure it was Manley. Second, they're talking about taking time to hear if they think something sounds good or not. We're talking about hearing differences here, not whether people like those supposed differences, including differences that some people claim are plainly obvious to seemingly everyone they demonstate the magic cables for and are "like lifting a blanket off your cabinet". That's pure rubbish, it's insulting to anyone with any intelligence or common-sense or even an entry-level clue as to how things work, and it's utterly unproven that these differences exist.

A/B/X, or a simple scope measurement would prove that in an instant and conclusively. The fact that no one has any such proof, especially those who could make millions with it, is itself practically conclusive that it doesn't exist. Because it can't exist. Laws of nature and all that malarkey, y'know?

We are absolutely right. As I said though, get thee top a lab and by all means prove us wrong. Even a scope measurement - very simple and cheap to get. You'll be famous, you'll be rich, and you'll have a hardy last laugh.

It's called power of suggestion, proven many times over that's exactly how it works. It's also a proven fact that human memory retention of sounds is very short. Some of us can admit we're flawed and gullible. Some of us can admit we've wasted money on products with bogus claims in the past. Some of us can't, and will make up all kinds of stuff to avoid having to admit that. As you please.

Thanks for setting me straight. Now I know that the next time I spend a couple of hundred bucks on a power cable, I should watch out for the previously unknown ancillary effect which is to render my ego fragile like crystal, desperately searching for affirmation for the stupid decisions I"ve made. Making me unwilling to admit to myself that any differences I hear are solely the result of me only fooling myself. Not only will I be unable to admit this, but the effect will also cause me to convert others to these strange beliefs with evangelistic fanaticism.

When individuals start throwing around black and white statements like "We are absolutely right." as you have, it kind of leaves little room for intelligent discussion No?

Anyway, like paulraphael I'm going to bow out of this discussion now, and it's not because I feel unable to debate the issue any longer, or have run out of points to make, it just is getting a bit too strident for me.
 
Hawkeye said:
Thanks for setting me straight. Now I know that the next time I spend a couple of hundred bucks on a power cable, I should watch out for the previously unknown ancillary effect which is to render my ego fragile like crystal, desperately searching for affirmation for the stupid decisions I"ve made. Making me unwilling to admit to myself that any differences I hear are solely the result of me only fooling myself. Not only will I be unable to admit this, but the effect will also cause me to convert others to these strange beliefs with evangelistic fanaticism.

You're missing the point. The point is not that you definitely will fool yourself. Who knows, perhaps you would be unusually resistant to self-delusion. The point is that in an unblinded, uncontrolled test, you (or anybody) *might* fool yourself, and for results to be trustable, you have to rule out not only problems that are certain to occur but those that only might occur, to the extent of your ability. You have to rule out all possible sources of error, as best you can.
 
SMASH said:
Actually it's a well-established effect not previously unknown. A great many of threads here go a good length towards proving it, and I am by no means immune. I want to, and often do, believe too. To be clear though, I didn't mean "you" literally had been fooled or are unable to admit if you were, but rather that you/anyone has those choices.





I suggest that intelligent discourse ceases when people can't admit they're fallible or might be wrong, I agree with you on that being frustrating. It's why I say it contributes nothing when people present anecdotes that defy nature and can't be replicated, and also why I say that "we" are correct, meaning we who admit our failings and instead run on facts, logic, simple scope testings which do register far in excess of the range and accuracy of human hearing, existing and conclusive proper testing results and methodologies, and the immutable laws of nature and how these devices receive and process power.

I respectuflly suggest that people who claim they can defy all that, regularly and along with their friends, are the ones being strident in repeating these stories or drawing incongrous parallels or supposings without basis about humans hearing beyond the scope of scientific instruments given that none of them will simply step up and prove it and probably would stand to make a small fortune in doing so.

Some of us are trying to discuss and learn about real physical properties and proper testing methods while others offer what as far as any logic or science is concerned can only be fairly called hallucinations. It's akin to me going into a "How many watts do I need for quiet jazz gigs?" thread and going on about how many watts I used onstage during my 15 years in Van Halen playing packed arenas. No matter how well I think I remember it or how many of my friends humour me by asking me to get them Eddie's autograph next time he's over at my place for a jam, if everyone with any accredited learning on the subject, plus simple logic and the historical record, tells me that I've probably not played those gigs then it'd be reasonable for me to either prove it or admit I might have imagined it or been confused. If not, and I insisted on going on about it as if others were wrong for not having seen me onstage or for not believing me, at some point someone has to say "we're trying to have a serious discussion, but if you can prove your claims we are willing to listen".

That said, it often seems to me that many people don't want to know about facts and physics here. This site is at times a fantasy land of fancy gear, magical devices, and flawless QC (except for Fender and Behringer of course), into which if anyone shines a bit of logic, contrary facts, or scientific method they're the party-pooping heretics. Perhaps in that light someone like me is rude akin to going to the Narnia film and complaining aloud that lions can't really talk, after all at times the stuff purported or attempted to be excused here can only come from "a dreamworld of magic". On that note I think I'll take your good lead and also bow out, or at least learn to just play along.
You're one of the most effective and least strident here, and oftentimes I find that you speak so well for others like me who aren't as good at putting into words that which we'd like to.
So please don't ever bow out.
 
SMASH said:
Actually it's a well-established effect not previously unknown. A great many of threads here go a good length towards proving it, and I am by no means immune. I want to, and often do, believe too. To be clear though, I didn't mean "you" literally had been fooled or are unable to admit if you were, but rather that you/anyone has those choices.





I suggest that intelligent discourse ceases when people can't admit they're fallible or might be wrong, I agree with you on that being frustrating. It's why I say it contributes nothing when people present anecdotes that defy nature and can't be replicated, and also why I say that "we" are correct, meaning we who admit our failings and instead run on facts, logic, simple scope testings which do register far in excess of the range and accuracy of human hearing, existing and conclusive proper testing results and methodologies, and the immutable laws of nature and how these devices receive and process power.

I respectuflly suggest that people who claim they can defy all that, regularly and along with their friends, are the ones being strident in repeating these stories or drawing incongrous parallels or supposings without basis about humans hearing beyond the scope of scientific instruments given that none of them will simply step up and prove it and probably would stand to make a small fortune in doing so.

Some of us are trying to discuss and learn about real physical properties and proper testing methods while others offer what as far as any logic or science is concerned can only be fairly called hallucinations. It's akin to me going into a "How many watts do I need for quiet jazz gigs?" thread and going on about how many watts I used onstage during my 15 years in Van Halen playing packed arenas. No matter how well I think I remember it or how many of my friends humour me by asking me to get them Eddie's autograph next time he's over at my place for a jam, if everyone with any accredited learning on the subject, plus simple logic and the historical record, tells me that I've probably not played those gigs then it'd be reasonable for me to either prove it or admit I might have imagined it or been confused. If not, and I insisted on going on about it as if others were wrong for not having seen me onstage or for not believing me, at some point someone has to say "we're trying to have a serious discussion, but if you can prove your claims we are willing to listen".

That said, it often seems to me that many people don't want to know about facts and physics here. This site is at times a fantasy land of fancy gear, magical devices, and flawless QC (except for Fender and Behringer of course), into which if anyone shines a bit of logic, contrary facts, or scientific method they're the party-pooping heretics. Perhaps in that light someone like me is rude akin to going to the Narnia film and complaining aloud that lions can't really talk, after all at times the stuff purported or attempted to be excused here can only come from "a dreamworld of magic". On that note I think I'll take your good lead and also bow out, or at least learn to just play along.

Thanks for your input and insight. Appreciated as always. Really, some of my most interesting discourses take place on TalkBass.

Note to self, add "power cables" to the list of topics to avoid at Sunday dinner: "Religion, Politics, same-sex marriage, tubes vs. solid state, 4 string vs. 5 string, Power cables". :)
 
SMASH said:
That said, it often seems to me that many people don't want to know about facts and physics here. This site is at times a fantasy land of fancy gear, magical devices, and flawless QC (except for Fender and Behringer of course), into which if anyone shines a bit of logic, contrary facts, or scientific method they're the party-pooping heretics. Perhaps in that light someone like me is rude akin to going to the Narnia film and complaining aloud that lions can't really talk, after all at times the stuff purported or attempted to be excused here can only come from "a dreamworld of magic". On that note I think I'll take your good lead and also bow out, or at least learn to just play along.
Well said.

And please consider not bowing out or playing along.
 
SMASH said:
On that note I think I'll take your good lead and also bow out, or at least learn to just play along.
I hope you just mean bow out of this thread. I know I am one of a lot of TBers who read your replies with interest and very rarely reply. You are getting your point across even if it seems more people are disagreeing than agreeing.
 
Munjibunga said:
I can't believe all you apparently intelligent (at least articulate) people are seriously arguing over this issue. It's intuitively obvious that Tara's claims are snake oil. Copper is copper. Get over it.

Since it is a POWER cable, it is conducting an AC signal into copper feeding more copper then being INDUCED across a transformer coil and stepped down, rectified and then charging a cap. The cap FILTERS out the AC to try to make as clean a DC level as it can. This output of the charged caps are supplying the RAIL voltage to the circuits and basically powering them up, NOT to confused with the SIGNAL PATH along which the actual sound is being sent. True voodoo indeed! :D
 
Munjibunga said:
I can't believe all you apparently intelligent (at least articulate) people are seriously arguing over this issue. It's intuitively obvious that Tara's claims are snake oil. Copper is copper. Get over it.

I do agree. This is one case where it is pretty clear. A very small amount of reason applied should convince anyone who thinks they hear an "improvement" in their audio system's output when using a fancy power cable that they are, in fact, the victim of imagination.

The AC power signal in your house is a nasty, noisy thing. Any of the qualities of this being transferred through your equipment's power supplies and into the signal chain is a bad thing. It can have no relation to the music itself, unless you listen to a CD of power line harmonics.

Thus, assuming your equipment is poorly designed and unfortunately susceptible to the vagaries of your line power, a "better" cable for you would be one that filters out some of that junk. I know what such a cable would look like - it'd have several large canisters, also known as capacitors. A wire, even a super-thick 99.999% percent-pure copper jobbie, will have billionths of the filtering capability of whatever your unfortunate components' power supplies have. And - here's the fun part - a cheap cable would be slightly better.

To break this down:

- you don't want to hear your power lines
- your stereo should accomplish this fact if it's any good
- if it's not, then a higher-quality power cable can only make things slightly (if utterly imperceptibly) worse
 
I believe that everything matters -- it is really all a question of degree. I think that your intended purpose should play a large part in your decision making in terms of allocating resources. For example, if I got a call to lay down tracks for the next Steely Dan (or similar) recording, then I would really sweat the small things. I would start with basses, strings, my nails, my emotional mindset ... and continue on to cables, DI systems, speaker recording and monitoring and on and on etc. If a friend called me up to play a gig at CBs (last chance for that!), then I would focus on good sound, appropriateness and mobility (ank maybe a little extra on DI). Ultimately, I really believe that everything matters to some degree. It is our job to sort out what really is significant so that we do not become totally flustered by a comparison in interconnects.
 
Alright, then. This is the first time I have actually read through all the posts (skimmed, actually)

Have the cables been returned?

What did Bob Lee of QSC find out about them?

I think that these are the two biggest questions that are unanswered from this thread. I have just spent an hour reading it and would like to know if there was any resolution to something that started pretty much three years ago.

Glenn
 
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