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TC Electronic Staccato Underpowered

As far as the cab thing goes....impedance varies with frequency, there is no 8ohm, or any other ohm speaker that has the same reading flat across. The numbers we use, 4,8,2.67, etc. are nominal impedance. A figure we use to be safe and keep from blowing our amps.

A speakers coil resistance (the reading you get when you put a meter on the terminals) is always lower than the nominal impedance and is the lowest and is the lowest impedance it will show along the frequency band. A speaker with a coil resistance reading anywhere from the low 5's up to close to 8 are all considered 8ohm speakers.

From the BGM article, the TC cabs look to bottom out around 7ohms. That's on the high side of what are considered 8ohm speakers.

So.....you probably could chain 3 of them to a "4ohm" amp and get away with it, at least if you're not pushing the amp into the upper ranges of it's capability. Assuming it was a decent amp, it would go into thermal protection shutdown and protect itself. Or maybe play just fine at lower levels. You likely couldn't do that with "8ohm" speakers who low point along the curve was say 5.5.

So, TC chose to come at this by saying you could use 3 of "their" 8ohm cabs on their 4 ohm amp but nobody elses. This may have been partially true if they hadn't changed to amp rating to 2.67. If it really was a 4ohm minimum amp, 3 of another companies "8ohm" cabs who's low point was in the 5's may have shut it down.

At the time, I said it wasn't quite enough to be a blatant lie as there's some wiggle room when it comes to impedance but that it certainly was confusing/misleading to the average (and not so average) bass player. Now they've changed the amp spec to 2.67 which means you should be able to run 3 of anybody's 8ohm cab. Regardless, with the amp limited to 236 watts, you won't get any power increase from lowering the impedance it's playing to. You'll still gain a little by increasing speaker count, but not as much as you would on a normal amp where speaker count and power increase together.

I don't know why, I'm sure it has to do with the gadgetry in these little amps but I see that a lot. Ratings like 200 watts @ 8ohms / 250 watts @ 4ohms. Not the increase you used to get with regular ss amps.
 
I make the supposition that anyone who's reputable and designs a cab does an impedance sweep...using multiple cabs won't change the behavior of each individual cab, so as long as a company is fairly accurate with their rating, you should be in good shape.

Agreed, but there's no way a company is going to knowingly put itself in a position of having to support configurations they're not 100% sure about. TC knows their cabs and is able to support that configuration.

You and I can experiment, but a company isn't going to support thousands of users doing this.


So can the TC amp run 3x real 8 ohm cabs, or do we have also an issue with TC-ohms vs real ohms?
There's no issue. TC is unable to provide customer support for the thousands of random cab configurations. Simple as that.
 
As far as the cab thing goes....impedance varies with frequency, there is no 8ohm, or any other ohm speaker that has the same reading flat across. The numbers we use, 4,8,2.67, etc. are nominal impedance. A figure we use to be safe and keep from blowing our amps.

A speakers coil resistance (the reading you get when you put a meter on the terminals) is always lower than the nominal impedance and is the lowest and is the lowest impedance it will show along the frequency band. A speaker with a coil resistance reading anywhere from the low 5's up to close to 8 are all considered 8ohm speakers.

From the BGM article, the TC cabs look to bottom out around 7ohms. That's on the high side of what are considered 8ohm speakers.

So.....you probably could chain 3 of them to a "4ohm" amp and get away with it, at least if you're not pushing the amp into the upper ranges of it's capability. Assuming it was a decent amp, it would go into thermal protection shutdown and protect itself. Or maybe play just fine at lower levels. You likely couldn't do that with "8ohm" speakers who low point along the curve was say 5.5.

So, TC chose to come at this by saying you could use 3 of "their" 8ohm cabs on their 4 ohm amp but nobody elses. This may have been partially true if they hadn't changed to amp rating to 2.67. If it really was a 4ohm minimum amp, 3 of another companies "8ohm" cabs who's low point was in the 5's may have shut it down.

At the time, I said it wasn't quite enough to be a blatant lie as there's some wiggle room when it comes to impedance but that it certainly was confusing/misleading to the average (and not so average) bass player. Now they've changed the amp spec to 2.67 which means you should be able to run 3 of anybody's 8ohm cab. Regardless, with the amp limited to 236 watts, you won't get any power increase from lowering the impedance it's playing to. You'll still gain a little by increasing speaker count, but not as much as you would on a normal amp where speaker count and power increase together.

I don't know why, I'm sure it has to do with the gadgetry in these little amps but I see that a lot. Ratings like 200 watts @ 8ohms / 250 watts @ 4ohms. Not the increase you used to get with regular ss amps.

Did they physically change the amp or did they just change the rating? You know, "OK, OK, you can run three of anyone's 8-ohm cabs off our amp, then."
 
Agreed, but there's no way a company is going to knowingly put itself in a position of having to support configurations they're not 100% sure about. TC knows their cabs and is able to support that configuration.

You and I can experiment, but a company isn't going to support thousands of users doing this.

Well, apparently every other company that lists an accurate minimum load rating on their amp is supporting people doing this...by listing an accurate number. :)
 
I can't believe people are suggesting this issue shouldn't be discussed anymore...!

It's a very important topic with much wider repercussions than TC's marketing fail.

Have any of the other main micro amp manufacturers chipped in with their PoV or their own 'real' specs yet?

This practice should be out in the open. And standards need to be raised. It shouldn't be swept under the carpet.
 
I can't believe people are suggesting this issue shouldn't be discussed anymore...!

It's a very important topic with much wider repercussions than TC's marketing fail.

Have any of the other main micro amp manufacturers chipped in with their PoV or their own 'real' specs yet?

This practice should be out in the open. And standards need to be raised. It shouldn't be swept under the carpet.

Mucho, mucho +1
 
the power rating is a non-issue IMO because the amps are plenty loud.

IMO it doesn't matter how loud the amp appears, if that loudness is created by methods that could be called smoke and mirrors. The simple truth is that TCE committed what is essentially fraud. If you don't think that you were conned by paying $1000, or what ever, for a 240W amp you certainly should. The same goes for everyone who purchased one. I would have been mad as hell!!!
 
Interesting information.
TC Electronics bought LC Audio a few years back
These may likely be where the power amp modules were designed.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I do suspect this or a form of it is the TC Electronic technology used.

These guys know what they're doing. I have a Zap pulse from years back. I raised the power supply for max out at 8 ohms for a single sub. Never a problem and complete, really complete, design cookbook information.

I have no idea how TC Electronics could have goofed up ratings if they own this amplifier technology.
 
BassmanPaul said:
IMO it doesn't matter how loud the amp appears, if that loudness is created by methods that could be called smoke and mirrors. The simple truth is that TCE committed what is essentially fraud. If you don't think that you were conned by paying $1000, or what ever, for a 240W amp you certainly should. The same goes for everyone who purchased one. I would have been mad as hell!!!

Well, being told by a non-owner that I as an owner should be upset is interesting, to say the least.

IMO it does indeed matter how loud the amp appears, in fact that is all that matters re the power ratings issue. To me as an owner that is.

The RH750 is everything I expected it to be, and it delivers on the gig. Together with the RS cabs it makes a killer rig IMO. Not for everyone I am sure, but why would I let this ruin my love for the rig? If I were displeased with it to begin with this deal would of course have made me furious, but as long as I'm not...;)
 
IMO it doesn't matter how loud the amp appears, if that loudness is created by methods that could be called smoke and mirrors. The simple truth is that TCE committed what is essentially fraud. If you don't think that you were conned by paying $1000, or what ever, for a 240W amp you certainly should. The same goes for everyone who purchased one. I would have been mad as hell!!!

Wow. You are literally telling me what I should think now.

I've explained exactly why I don't care less about an amp makers integrity. I just use it to play bass.
 
IMO it doesn't matter how loud the amp appears, if that loudness is created by methods that could be called smoke and mirrors. The simple truth is that TCE committed what is essentially fraud. If you don't think that you were conned by paying $1000, or what ever, for a 240W amp you certainly should. The same goes for everyone who purchased one. I would have been mad as hell!!!

Then you don't accept that tube watts tend to be louder than SS .??

As I see it I bought my staccato to replace my markbass Sd800 rated 750 w and expected it to be almost as loud..... I found it LOUDER

Then I bought the RH750(AFTER this whole wattage thing came out) claimed 750w and expected to be almost as loud as mu mesa boogie m9 claimed 900 w... And found it LOUDER

So I really dont care if it is made from mirrors or smoke but IMO they did it

And thats the problem in a nutshell.... TCE invented a amplificstion technology that makes "true watts" sound even louder than Tube- watts.... But admittedly they have had a hard tine explaining it in a way that we would "buy" and then they chose an easy solution claiming more watts than can be prooved in a Lab
 
Let's go back to the car analogy. In January I purchased a little Jeep. The motor is a four cylinder unit that "feels like a 6 cylinder". If Chrysler had advertised the vehicle as having a 6 cylinder but installed a four they would have been crucified! TCE's actions are exactly the equivalent.

I'm really glad that you who actually bought the amp are enjoying it. However let's be completely honest here - if TCE had advertised the amp as a 240W unit, when you were looking to buy would you have even looked at it?? Some I'm sure would but not as many as bought. Talk Bass would have been full of how TCE completely missed the boat by only offering a 240W amp. We would be saying that TCE doesn't understand what the average bass player needs.

Fraud IS fraud whether you like the results or no!
 
Then you don't accept that tube watts tend to be louder than SS .??

There is no such thing as tube watts. A watt is a scientific measure of power. They don't care if they are generated by tubes or transistors. Both a tube amp and a SS amp will be equally as loud at the same amount of THD. The fact that some enjoy the distortion and compression of a tube output stage has nothing to do with it.
 
Tc did not invent a new application technology. They implemented known approaches in a bass specific manner apparently to great effect. It is not that they somehow cannot prove the extra watch in the laboratory. The amplifier only makes about 236 watch. in my view people who are happy with the results should be happy. Happy is good. But truth is truth and imo TC took an unfortunate approach in marketing by stating incorrect specs. That does not mean you should be unhappy if you are not.
 

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