Teaching Band Member Harmony Vocals

[jdh3000]

A question for all the harmony singers.

Do you hear harmonies as separate voices or as an interval?

Our drummer sings well, with a good high and low range, but doesn't sing harmony. We think he could really add something to our sound and we want to give him a part, plus he is wanting to learn.

The guitar player and myself have different approaches. He says learning the part and practicing that part alone is the only way to learn to sing harmony well, listening to your own voice.

The drummer has tried this but loses it once he tries to put it with the other parts.

I personally can only hear the voices together as intervals, 3rd, 5th, etc... I've tried over the years to hear it separate but never could distinguish, I only hear a certain sound. It sounds weird to my ear to try to hear it without the blend.

I can form the sound correctly, as long as I know what it should sound like, or hear in my head what to make it sound like… I just sing and my voice goes to the part, that’s just how I learned. I know what the part sounds like in the context of being with the lead vocal.

This drummer doesn't know theory, so talking to him about any of that is difficult. But he has a good ear, I think if we can show him what the part should sound like in a song he can learn what to sing easier.

I think if he tries to learn each part as a line, it'll take him longer I would think the end result would be to hear all the parts together.

All of our harmonies are simple, there's no interweaving.

I’m not saying the guitar player is wrong, I just think everyone learns it differently. If he’s not getting it that way, maybe this way would work.

The folks I grew up around didn’t know theory, and couldn’t tell you anything about what they were doing, but they could harmonize beautifully.
They could hear a part and just add another without working it out in advance.

How did you learn and how have you shown others?

Thanks!

 

[MonetBass]

IMO, harmonizing is difficult to teach unless someone has the innate ability to hear chords. If the method you outlined of playing the part individually and learning it that way doesn't work, you have a tough road ahead. Most people I've played with who want to do harmony vocals just take the "I'll take the low harmony, you take the high one... and go" approach and it works.

The folks I grew up around didn’t know theory, and couldn’t tell you anything about what they were doing, but they could harmonize beautifully.
They could hear a part and just add another without working it out in advance.

This is what I mean. And I think it answers the question somewhat.

 

[4SG]

paging @LBS-bass…

 

[buldog5151bass]

I hear intervals.

I think it's easier to work backwards. Find the last note in the line (it's usually chord change anyway, so you can hear it easier). Then keep working backwards a note at a time.

 

[two fingers]

Here's the thing. I fancied myself and amazing harmony singer until I got in my current band. Little did I know.....(We won't go into what my shortcomings were.)

BUT, it CAN be taught. My other two singers worked with me. That have turned into a ridiculously good harmony singer. In particular, I can pick out lower harmonies, which were not so easy for me before.

But, as you said OP, different people learn different ways.

Also, if the dude can sing, try giving him lead vocals on a few and you guys back him up.

 

[LBS-bass]

Oh, man. My experience is that you've either got it or you don't. I have wasted a lot of time and effort trying to teach someone a harmony, only to have them fold that in with the melody line as soon as the melody is added, just as you describe.

My theory in trying this is that if you can learn a melody, you can learn a harmony once you sing it enough that it becomes like a melody to you. I think that's what your guitar player is trying to bank on.

Unfortunately, what happens is that the known melody takes over when someone doesn't have the ear to differentiate. No matter what you teach them, they will sing the melody as soon as it is included in the mix, because they know the song that way and the melody is more familiar.

I've never found a way to teach someone who can't find a harmony on their own to sing one. I don't know how to address it because I don't understand it; I didn't learn anything; I have always been able to find and sing a harmony. As someone who can hear all the parts I can't process what's going on for someone who can't, so there's no way I can dig into what they do hear to sort out how to separate out the harmony parts, if that makes any sense. Perhaps doing ear training and singing along with arpeggios or something played against chords would help, but it seems one would need to be pretty dedicated to doing this in order to go through that, and I don't think many people are.

So I really don't have much to offer. It sounds like you are also someone who hears harmonies well, but it doesn't sound like your drummer is.

 

[LBS-bass]

Here's the thing. I fancied myself and amazing harmony singer until I got in my current band. Little did I know.....(We won't go into what my shortcomings were.)

From this it sounds like you were at least able to hear and differentiate a harmony, which means you were teachable.

 

[ZedLepp]

My guitarist would record the notes on his guitar that he wanted me sing and I would practice to that.

 

[two fingers]

From this it sounds like you were at least able to hear and differentiate a harmony, which means you were teachable.

To get a little more specific about my case, I had been singing harmonies for years. BUT, I was usually the ONLY harmony. So I could weave in and out between parts and sing the most prevalent one. I didn't have to stay in my lane. I was also always sing high harmonies, because I have the range.

When my band formed, the other to were slick and polished harmony singer. They knew how to stay in their own lanes. And, one of them is a female, so high harmonies were no longer my deal.

They taught me how to listen for lower harmonies. (Now I hear them easily.) And I had to really focus on the individual parts because I can no longer move around without winding up where one of them is already singing.

 

[bfields]

The drummer has tried this but loses it once he tries to put it with the other parts.

The problem may be just finding the first note. They don't know where to start, so they just latch on the the lead part. But it they can just find the right level at the start, their memory of the harmony line will kick in. That's something I've run into myself before.

I usually deal with it by singing quietly along with the introduction somehow, and finding a melody that leads my into my first note. It's a crutch that I'm eventually able to discard as I learn the sound of the harmony.

Maybe you could help your drummer find a little crutch like that to get started.

 

[Jeff Hughes]

One of the struggles I have found is that the harmony student doesn’t always get that you can’t add extra notes to the part the way a lead singer might.

I think this is something that the student has to practice along with melodies they already know.

 

[zjuarez64]

For me, I think of the harmony as the second melody. You're moving within the scale in the same shape as the melody, but starting on a different chord tone. If you have them practice scales, arpeggios, and tonicizing that might help!

I had to practice a lot of choral pieces and some Eagles stuff (Seven Bridge Road is a big one!) to get used to moving and matching other harmony parts.

There are also a few videos on youtube that have a harmony line playing so you can practice hearing that then they put the melody in without the harmony for you to sing the harmony along to.

 

[pbass2]

The problem may be just finding the first note.

This. If he has good pitch, then you're off to a good start. If he can hit that first note and sing the "shape" of the harmony part, essentially as a secondary melody, he can probably start finding harmonies quicker. A couple notes might be off but still be in key, and then you can finesse it (or he may land on something cool
Easiest if it's a higher part that stays above the lead. Low harmonies are simply more difficult IMO).

 

[LBS-bass]

Good luck with it. I would never waste my own time with this again- you have no idea the hours expended. But if you would like to try, I'm sure some of the other guidance here could be useful.

 

[sawzalot]

I used to do the interval technique, and sometimes I still do. But I find it much more effective to first learn the primary melody, and only after I have that down go learn the upper or lower harmony as a separate melody. At gig/rehearsal time, it's critically important to have good monitoring so I can hear myself sing that melody, or else the natural tendency is to go back to the melody or just go off key completely. Once I get a part in there though, and I can hear my own voice properly, it's sometimes hard to go back to singing the main melody.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Get him one lesson with vocal teacher with lots of skill/experience in teaching harmony. There’s way more than two ways to understand/approach harmony, The teacher will quickly find the method that works best for your drummer. It’ll take him a while to get skilled at this. In the meantime…

try these -
1. have him sing melody for the whole song, or
2. lead singer switches to harmony line and he sings melody for just the parts where harmony part is in.
I did this often when gigging with my brother - I couldn’t sing high enough for the high harmony line but he could.

 

[mrcbass]

BUT, I was usually the ONLY harmony. So I could weave in and out between parts and sing the most prevalent one.

Yeah, I have issues with this sometimes. It's odd, my voice usually a better fit as a third voice in a harmony setting, but I often am the only one doing backups. So I do what I can with my limited range to carve out a harmony. When someone else joins in it can get dicey - I really need to work a lot with the other voices to dial in a "proper" harmony line with multiple harmonies. My primary band doesn't rehearse and has rotating personnel, so we have a few songs that can get messy vocally. I often just back off the mic when this happens. Sometimes I'll try to find a different harmony, but typically, I'm already singing what fits my range best.

In regards to OPs, discussion, I've found that it's very hard to train harmony singers that don't come by it naturally. For a few months I was a LV stand in for a project while we were looking for LV talent. I found that I had a hard time finding the lead line on some songs because I always sang harmonies to everything on the radio - inventing harmonies when one wasn't done by the original artist. I don't think that most people think/listen/participate like this. I was working with one band who considered gang vocals "harmony" and every time we spent time working actual harmonies, they'd all revert back to gang mentality the next week. A losing battle.

I'd suggest having people with strong voices, but poor harmony skills, sing the lead line during harmony passages and have your more skilled voices do the harmonies. The "3rd" and "5th" harmony mentality doesn't always apply - sometimes the lead is singing the "3rd" so the harmonies would fall on the root and 5. Yes using the 3rd/5th concept is useful for training, but real world applications don't always fall into that pattern. And good harmonies do not always parallel the lead (go up and down together) - just like good piano chord voicing. You really need to be able be able to just find it. Assign/figure out a starting note and then "know" how to move with the lead line.

 

[jdh3000]

Oh, man. My experience is that you've either got it or you don't. I have wasted a lot of time and effort trying to teach someone a harmony, only to have them fold that in with the melody line as soon as the melody is added, just as you describe.

My theory in trying this is that if you can learn a melody, you can learn a harmony once you sing it enough that it becomes like a melody to you. I think that's what your guitar player is trying to bank on.

Unfortunately, what happens is that the known melody takes over when someone doesn't have the ear to differentiate. No matter what you teach them, they will sing the melody as soon as it is included in the mix, because they know the song that way and the melody is more familiar.

I've never found a way to teach someone who can't find a harmony on their own to sing one. I don't know how to address it because I don't understand it; I didn't learn anything; I have always been able to find and sing a harmony. As someone who can hear all the parts I can't process what's going on for someone who can't, so there's no way I can dig into what they do hear to sort out how to separate out the harmony parts, if that makes any sense. Perhaps doing ear training and singing along with arpeggios or something played against chords would help, but it seems one would need to be pretty dedicated to doing this in order to go through that, and I don't think many people are.

So I really don't have much to offer. It sounds like you are also someone who hears harmonies well, but it doesn't sound like your drummer is.

Here's the thing. I fancied myself and amazing harmony singer until I got in my current band. Little did I know.....(We won't go into what my shortcomings were.)

BUT, it CAN be taught. My other two singers worked with me. That have turned into a ridiculously good harmony singer. In particular, I can pick out lower harmonies, which were not so easy for me before.

But, as you said OP, different people learn different ways.

Also, if the dude can sing, try giving him lead vocals on a few and you guys back him up.

Yea we back him up on his lead vocals, I think that if he really gets a feel for what it sounds like he’ll be able to do it.

I do it intuitively, where I think the guitar player constructs it in his head methodically. We both achieve the same result. He can do it on the fly like me but has done it that way so long that it happens subconsciously.
He can sing the part with or without the melody, where as I have to hear it all together.

I have tried to show others before but gave up. I don’t think they really wanted to anyway. I think this guy wants to, he just needs some guidance.
All the other groups he’s been in already had their backups covered so he only ever sang lead. I’d like to help someone who is willing to try.

Gravitating toward the melody may be what the GP believes his method will circumvent, and he could be right.

I’ve heard that singing in a round like “row, row your boat” can break a person from getting off their part, teaching them to stay the course no matter what the other voices do. I don’t know if that would help him or not.
To me it seems easier just to form a chord, hear a note and pair what sounds right with it. If I tried to hear myself alone I’d drown out the lead vocal.

To get a little more specific about my case, I had been singing harmonies for years. BUT, I was usually the ONLY harmony. So I could weave in and out between parts and sing the most prevalent one. I didn't have to stay in my lane. I was also always sing high harmonies, because I have the range.

When my band formed, the other to were slick and polished harmony singer. They knew how to stay in their own lanes. And, one of them is a female, so high harmonies were no longer my deal.

They taught me how to listen for lower harmonies. (Now I hear them easily.) And I had to really focus on the individual parts because I can no longer move around without winding up where one of them is already singing.

It’s always easier being the only harmony singer in that you can be a little more flexible, but with 3 or more it gets out of whack quickly if everyone doesn’t keep tight on their part.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Do you hear harmonies as separate voices or as an interval?

Both

I get my starting pitch as an interval, either above/below the root of the chord or above/below the melody note that someone else is singing.

But then I'm singing a (counter-)melody, a line which goes up or down from that starting pitch, and that just so happens to form intervals with the other vocalists. So it's sort of a "separate voice" ...although tbh the way I sing any melody (or counter-melody) is by singing linear intervals, so it's all "an interval" in some sense.

 

[Hammertime3]

I can sing three parts equally as well, albeit country and bluegrass, and other stuff like Eagles, but I would never know how to begin to teach it. I really believe if you can't hear it, you can't sing it. I never knew anyone who could sing three parts well that was ever instructed by someone else. I worked on singing the third part..baritone wec all it.. for a while before I got it, but no one ever showed me how, nor could I learn from anyone else. I think you either have it or you don't. Sad, but true. Just like singing..many can carry the tune, but few can sing.