Tempo/Time Feel Issues with EB for Jazz

[Spin Doctor]

This is most likely an issue with the confidence you have with your own time. As suggested, do a lot of metronome work, with a view to just staying solid in the time. I had a similar issue in my band and my drummer told me directly that I needed to get a metronome and work with it. I was kinda salty about the comment, but turns out he was right. Your ultimate goal is to make that metronome swing. Your attack, articulation, etc affects this greatly. It's not all about note placement, per se.

Once you've learned a line you like, via backing tracks, etc. then use those tracks as little as possible. It may take awhile to get there, but backing tracks are a crutch that will not get you any benefit with time feel. It has to be internal and you have to hear the changes in your head.

 

[Spin Doctor]

...It doesn't matter how good my time is, that is if I'm playing with someone with their own concept of time and tempo. I get with -their- program no matter how off or wrong it is. Since I'm hired accompany them, I have to throw in and make the best of it.

Nope. You're hired to lead the rhythm section.

You drive the band, not the drummer. And it doesn't matter what the guitarist, keyboardist, etc is doing. You can't be scared of the job, since a band is only as good as the bass player.

 

[matthewbrown]

Nope. You're hired to lead the rhythm section.

You drive the band, not the drummer. And it doesn't matter what the guitarist, keyboardist, etc is doing. You can't be scared of the job, since a band is only as good as the bass player.

I've been playing so long in drummerless trios that I do this naturally. I think that my time feel problems make my current issues with drummers worse -- I've haven't played live for two years, and I'm just starting to practice regularly again after a long hiatus.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I've been playing so long in drummerless trios that I do this naturally. I think that my time feel problems make my current issues with drummers worse -- I've haven't played live for two years, and I'm just starting to practice regularly again after a long hiatus.

That all makes sense. You'll get back in the saddle in no time.

 

[littlebun]

Nope. You're hired to lead the rhythm section.

You drive the band, not the drummer. And it doesn't matter what the guitarist, keyboardist, etc is doing. You can't be scared of the job, since a band is only as good as the bass player.

I play for a living, so I'm speaking from that perspective and experience. If I went into jobs leading everyone I work with by the nose...I wouldn't work. Everyone should be strong in their role, but when you're hired to come in, you better get with their program, otherwise you won't work.

 

[littlebun]

I've been playing so long in drummerless trios that I do this naturally. I think that my time feel problems make my current issues with drummers worse -- I've haven't played live for two years, and I'm just starting to practice regularly again after a long hiatus.

Matthew, The fact that you know there's a problem is a plus and tells me everything will work itself out. Watch your volume when you're playing with a drummer. If you play too loud you won't be able to hear and lock into the tempo like you should. If I play too loud I will sometimes be listening for the tempo and this will make me play tentatively and behind the beat. If I play at the right volume I can react to the beat and play strongly, instead of trying to hear the beat over my playing volume--I hope that makes sense. The great Lee Sklar says he wants to hear all the other instruments more than himself, so he can play and react to them. That's some great advice.

 

[matthewbrown]

This is actually one of the reasons I often prefer to work without a drummer -- it's easier to hear everyone (except the drummer, who isn't there!). Some drummers are musicians first, of course, and they listen as hard as anyone.

 

[littlebun]

This is actually one of the reasons I often prefer to work without a drummer -- it's easier to hear everyone (except the drummer, who isn't there!). Some drummers are musicians first, of course, and they listen as hard as anyone.

Matthew, I play with acoustic bands, too. In that context the unit will usually play together where the tempo falls, but sometimes there are leaders who are only comfortable when they are setting the pulse. In those circumstances if you try to show them where the pulse is you'll sound like you're on the other side of them. I look at the bass as the butter on the the bread; making the band sound smooth and coherent.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I play for a living, so I'm speaking from that perspective and experience. If I went into jobs leading everyone I work with by the nose...I wouldn't work. Everyone should be strong in their role, but when you're hired to come in, you better get with their program, otherwise you won't work.

It's not a matter of leading people around by the nose. It's a matter of effectively doing your job and keeping the music tied together. I've heard a million times that the bass drives the band. Are you telling me that's not true?

 

[Wasnex]

I've been playing so long in drummerless trios that I do this naturally. I think that my time feel problems make my current issues with drummers worse -- I've haven't played live for two years, and I'm just starting to practice regularly again after a long hiatus.

Consider the situation from everyone else's perspective. If there is a drummer, the band will most likely take time from the drums. If there is no drummer, the band should take time from the bass. Unfortunately it's sort of hard to hear where the bass is placing the beat.

I guess I am just the opposite of you. I don't enjoy playing jazz without a drummer. When I play with a good drummer, time seems solid and clear. The drummer and I can usually create a nice pocket with a stable feel.

When there is no drummer, the pocket has to be negotiated with each musician or section. Typically it feels like I am wading through mud because people tend to interpret my ictus way behind where it is, or they are trying to stretch the pocket way too far. Also since each persons perception of where I am placing the beat tends to vary, time tends to vary depending on who is playing. This is further exacerbated by each person's unique interpretation of how wide the pocket should be.

When the bass and drums lock, the rest of the band has a lot more freedom to interpret where the beat falls without time problems. The idea is the bass and drums are using each other as a primary time reference, so if anyone else is out of sync a bit it does not cause problems. This allows the use of creative back phrasing.

Of course in extreme situations, other sections can cause time to crash. Swing feel is complicated and some people have a totally wrong idea of how to sustain a stable swing feel. Some think to create a relaxed swing feel that you are constantly slowing down. But this is not correct. If you are constantly slowing, then eventually you will fall behind by one beat. When a section falls so far behind they are leading the previous beat, the band may totally crash. This is something I have experience in several professional bands when playing Freckle Face...The back phrasing in this recording sounds easy, but apparently it's not.

 

[micguy]

Regarding the distance issue. Sound travels at approximately 1' per millisecond (mS) and the limit of human perception is about 15mS. Since sound must travel two ways for two people to play together, I believe distance over about 7.5' can impact the feel. Moving from the left side of the drum set to the right side of the drumset can have a subtle impact of how your perception of the feel.

I was once in a band where, for a while, we didn't have a bass player (I was the guitarist in that group). I was using 2 amps - one for the direct signal, the other for delay, chorus, etc. We sounded good, but I though we were rhythmically a bit loose. I noticed that the way we were set up, the "delay amp" was the one closer to the drummer, so I flipped the amps - I made the "direct amp" the one closer to the drummer. That seemed to clean up our timing issues a lot.

 

[matthewbrown]

Consider the situation from everyone else's perspective. If there is a drummer, the band will most likely take time from the drums. If there is no drummer, the band should take time from the bass. Unfortunately it's sort of hard to hear where the bass is placing the beat.

I guess I am just the opposite of you. I don't enjoy playing jazz without a drummer. When I play with a good drummer, time seems solid and clear. The drummer and I can usually create a nice pocket with a stable feel.

When there is no drummer, the pocket has to be negotiated with each musician or section. Typically it feels like I am wading through mud because people tend to interpret my ictus way behind where it is, or they are trying to stretch the pocket way too far. Also since each persons perception of where I am placing the beat tends to vary, time tends to vary depending on who is playing. This is further exacerbated by each person's unique interpretation of how wide the pocket should be.

When the bass and drums lock, the rest of the band has a lot more freedom to interpret where the beat falls without time problems. The idea is the bass and drums are using each other as a primary time reference, so if anyone else is out of sync a bit it does not cause problems. This allows the use of creative back phrasing.

Of course in extreme situations, other sections can cause time to crash. Swing feel is complicated and some people have a totally wrong idea of how to sustain a stable swing feel. Some think to create a relaxed swing feel that you are constantly slowing down. But this is not correct. If you are constantly slowing, then eventually you will fall behind by one beat. When a section falls so far behind they are leading the previous beat, the band may totally crash. This is something I have experience in several professional bands when playing Freckle Face...The back phrasing in this recording sounds easy, but apparently it's not.

I enjoy playing with a drummer, but I don't enjoy it as much now that I have played so long without one, as I am out of practice leading a band with a drummer. I mainly book restaurant gigs in trio format, and when there is a drummer, volume often becomes a subject of complaints. Sometimes I can get a swinging, tasteful drummer to do the gigs, and that works fine. But those drummers are very busy, naturally! There are not a lot of strong jazz players in my region, and that influences my choices. If I can get a strong pianist or guitarist who can groove and a solid horn player, that offers a wider range of possibilities than adding a drummer -- as long as I can keep the feel solid. With the right players, it works without a drummer.

 

[matthewbrown]

Matthew, I play with acoustic bands, too. In that context the unit will usually play together where the tempo falls, but sometimes there are leaders who are only comfortable when they are setting the pulse. In those circumstances if you try to show them where the pulse is you'll sound like you're on the other side of them. I look at the bass as the butter on the the bread; making the band sound smooth and coherent.

I am conflicted about this problem. I have too often heard tempos drag by 1/4 or so bpm because someone had a different tempo in mind, or couldn't solo at the tempo counted off. I used to play with a leader who called off tunes at swift tempos, would play the head at the called tempo, but then would drag it into the basement as soon as he began his solo. Even WITH a drummer. At times like those, I'm STILL not sure how hard I can push the tempo harder or if I should just let it slow down to medium swing...

 

[littlebun]

I am conflicted about this problem. I have too often heard tempos drag by 1/4 or so bpm because someone had a different tempo in mind, or couldn't solo at the tempo counted off. I used to play with a leader who called off tunes at swift tempos, would play the head at the called tempo, but then would drag it into the basement as soon as he began his solo. Even WITH a drummer. At times like those, I'm STILL not sure how hard I can push the tempo harder or if I should just let it slow down to medium swing...

Matthew, I've learned not to push against what's going on, because no matter how -right- I am, I will sound wrong if I don't play right along with them. I tell young players: If the band is dragging or rushing...you need to drag or rush right along with them. If you don't play right with them the band will sound even worse than it does if you fight against what's being played. Inexperienced players will sometimes drag their swing, thinking that playing -way- on the backside is grooving. I'm constantly adjusting to drummers or leaders because that's my job. I'm not there to show them how bad they play, or how bad their time or swing is. They want someone who sounds great, makes them sound great, and someone who makes them feel great about playing music with them. Day to day I'm playing with players of all levels from great players to those who don't give a crap or can't play well. It's a constant battle of adjustment. Usually the drummer and I will keep things motoring along, and this includes during the solos. I will wiggle a bit to make the singer or soloist sound better if I can, because each player tends to approach the same tempo differently than the previous soloist. Your adjustment to others is what gets you the work calls.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I am conflicted about this problem. I have too often heard tempos drag by 1/4 or so bpm because someone had a different tempo in mind, or couldn't solo at the tempo counted off. I used to play with a leader who called off tunes at swift tempos, would play the head at the called tempo, but then would drag it into the basement as soon as he began his solo. Even WITH a drummer. At times like those, I'm STILL not sure how hard I can push the tempo harder or if I should just let it slow down to medium swing...

So I'm assuming that this isn't a situation where you have to play to feed yourself, but in this group, is there absolutely zero room for improvement? They just refuse to do it? If so, I couldn't operate in a environment like this.

But I don't have to.

 

[matthewbrown]

So I'm assuming that this isn't a situation where you have to play to feed yourself, but in this group, is there absolutely zero room for improvement? They just refuse to do it? If so, I couldn't operate in an environment like this.

But I don't have to.

Virtually all of my gigs are casuals, until lately. Now I'm rehearsing with project bands until gigs pick up, which may take a while. And no, I'm no longer a f/t musician. For $ I do a variety of things, mainly teaching high school social studies. So I'm much more selective about the gigs I do than I used to be.

 

[littlebun]

Virtually all of my gigs are casuals, until lately. Now I'm rehearsing with project bands until gigs pick up, which may take a while. And no, I'm no longer a f/t musician. For $ I do a variety of things, mainly teaching high school social studies. So I'm much more selective about the gigs I do than I used to be.

Hang in there, Matthew. Your heads in the right place. Keep working it until you get comfortable again. Slow and steady, friend.