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Tempo/Time Feel Issues with EB for Jazz

I recently started rehearsing with a jazz combo (pno, dr, ww, bs), and the host of the sessions has started recording us. I'm more comfortable on EB, so I'm on EB for now. I haven't played with a group regularly for two years.

For the recording I played an MTD Kingston Heir with Labella Deep-Talkin' Bass strings through a Sansamp Bass DI, which sounded good -- pretty old school. I noticed that on tunes with a swing feel 1)I tended to play on top of the beat compared to everyone else, and to rush the tempos at times 2) despite this, the tempos often dragged during improvised solos 3) the group didn't swing.

The interpersonal dynamic is a factor here, too. I'm not the leader, and the drummer and the leader (saxes) both have strong personalities.

FWIW, I rarely play with a drummer; I mostly play in trios and I AM the rhythm section. I'd appreciate suggestions about how I can best use this opportunity to improve.
 
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I am also a jazz combo player and found that I was rushing as well. A couple of things really helped me out with this. First was using a metronome. I would walk changes with the metronome clicking on two and four, leaving me to place the other beats accurately. I did this at varying tempos. I read an article in which Carol Kaye was talking about how, after playing with a metronome for awhile, it's possible to make it groove. It took me awhile, but I got there. The other thing that really helped me was to record myself playing with the metronome. I would focus on my time, listen back, make adjustments, and then record again. I was really surprised at how much better I heard myself when I wasn't playing. It doesn't have to be a professional recording, just as long as you can hear everything. I use my ipod lol. Hope that this helps!
 
For what this is worth; I love to pass the job of "beat master" to the drummer, then lock with his kick drum and fall into a grove from there. Course helps to have a good drummer.

As to playing to his beat, that will come as you play with them.

Good luck with how this works out.


It doesn't work that way in swing. The kick drum is just that: for kicks. Time comes from the bass.
 
I recently started rehearsing with a jazz combo (pno, dr, ww, bs), and the host of the sessions has started recording us. I'm more comfortable on EB, so I'm on EB for now. I haven't played with a group regularly for two years.

For the recording I played an MTD Kingston Heir with Labella Deep-Talkin' Bass strings through a Sansamp Bass DI, which sounded good -- pretty old school. I noticed that on tunes with a swing feel 1)I tended to play on top of the beat compared to everyone else, and to rush the tempos at times 2) despite this, the tempos often dragged during improvised solos 3) the group didn't swing.

The interpersonal dynamic is a factor here, too. I'm not the leader, and the drummer and the leader (saxes) both have strong personalities.

FWIW, I rarely play with a drummer; I mostly play in trios and I AM the rhythm section. I'd appreciate suggestions about how I can best use this opportunity to improve.

Use a metronome and practice playing with different levels of rhythmic tension, both ahead and behind the beat. This will develop your ability to hold a stable pocket.

The problem with this is a drummer will adjust and a metronome will hold solid. This illuminates the reality...you can't play on top of the beat, or behind the beat for that matter if the drummer adjusts and destroys the size of the pocket you are trying to create. So in order to create stable time with the desired rhythmic tension, the bass and drum must agree to the size of the pocket. It helps if your discuss goals on this matter and come to some sort of agreement. It may take time for a bassists and drummer to get comfortable with one another.

There are several problems related to the perception of where the beat actually is. For example does the drummer perceive your ictus where you are placing it? Where the drummer thinks you are placing the beat is impacted by your tone, the direction the amp is facing, and the distance from your amp to the drummers ears. So generally there is going to be some difference between where you place the beat, and where others perceive it.

Problems with other clearly hearing the bass is the main reason why I don't buy the idea that the bass should or even can own time. I have been in bands where the leader subscribed to this philosophy and it was a disaster. There was nothing I could do to hold the drummer back. The drummer would run away with time so much that I would eventually be a beat behind.

Regarding the distance issue. Sound travels at approximately 1' per millisecond (mS) and the limit of human perception is about 15mS. Since sound must travel two ways for two people to play together, I believe distance over about 7.5' can impact the feel. Moving from the left side of the drum set to the right side of the drumset can have a subtle impact of how your perception of the feel.

The biggest problem is bass (especially electric bass) does not usually provide a clear ictus that everyone can hear. Some upright players have a super aggressive attack, which should help, but I have worked with drummers who keyed off the bloom of my notes rather than the attack.

I don't particularly like an upright sound with a really percussive attack and IMHO the cymbals and high hat are far more easier to hear. My preference is for the drummer to have primary ownership of the beat. But let's be clear everyone has a responsibility for time, and many (supposedly) highly skilled musicians have serious problems with time, and a poor understanding of why the problems exist.
 
Use a metronome and practice playing with different levels of rhythmic tension, both ahead and behind the beat. This will develop your ability to hold a stable pocket.

The problem with this is a drummer will adjust and a metronome will hold solid. This illuminates the reality...you can't play on top of the beat, or behind the beat for that matter if the drummer adjusts and destroys the size of the pocket you are trying to create. So in order to create stable time with the desired rhythmic tension, the bass and drum must agree to the size of the pocket. It helps if your discuss goals on this matter and come to some sort of agreement. It may take time for a bassists and drummer to get comfortable with one another.

There are several problems related to the perception of where the beat actually is. For example does the drummer perceive your ictus where you are placing it? Where the drummer thinks you are placing the beat is impacted by your tone, the direction the amp is facing, and the distance from your amp to the drummers ears. So generally there is going to be some difference between where you place the beat, and where others perceive it.

Problems with other clearly hearing the bass is the main reason why I don't buy the idea that the bass should or even can own time. I have been in bands where the leader subscribed to this philosophy and it was a disaster. There was nothing I could do to hold the drummer back. The drummer would run away with time so much that I would eventually be a beat behind.

Regarding the distance issue. Sound travels at approximately 1' per millisecond (mS) and the limit of human perception is about 15mS. Since sound must travel two ways for two people to play together, I believe distance over about 7.5' can impact the feel. Moving from the left side of the drum set to the right side of the drumset can have a subtle impact of how your perception of the feel.

The biggest problem is bass (especially electric bass) does not usually provide a clear ictus that everyone can hear. Some upright players have a super aggressive attack, which should help, but I have worked with drummers who keyed off the bloom of my notes rather than the attack.

I don't particularly like an upright sound with a really percussive attack and IMHO the cymbals and high hat are far more easier to hear. My preference is for the drummer to have primary ownership of the beat. But let's be clear everyone has a responsibility for time, and many (supposedly) highly skilled musicians have serious problems with time, and a poor understanding of why the problems exist.
"

"So in order to create stable time with the desired rhythmic tension, the bass and drum must agree to the size of the pocket."

I think this is at the heart of the problem. The drummer places himself at a distance from the other players. He prefers to be far away from us and to play rather loudly. The leader has suggested greater proximity and pointing the bass cab in his direction, with limited success. But more is going on, and I have to do some more critical listening to the recordings, I think.
 
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I recently started rehearsing with a jazz combo (pno, dr, ww, bs), and the host of the sessions has started recording us. I'm more comfortable on EB, so I'm on EB for now. I haven't played with a group regularly for two years.

For the recording I played an MTD Kingston Heir with Labella Deep-Talkin' Bass strings through a Sansamp Bass DI, which sounded good -- pretty old school. I noticed that on tunes with a swing feel 1)I tended to play on top of the beat compared to everyone else, and to rush the tempos at times 2) despite this, the tempos often dragged during improvised solos 3) the group didn't swing.

The interpersonal dynamic is a factor here, too. I'm not the leader, and the drummer and the leader (saxes) both have strong personalities.

FWIW, I rarely play with a drummer; I mostly play in trios and I AM the rhythm section. I'd appreciate suggestions about how I can best use this opportunity to improve.
Keep playing with them. You'll either start jiving with their dynamics, or you won't. But, you'll notice you're not fitting before the band mentions it. You've already expressed it to us.
 
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I recently started rehearsing with a jazz combo (pno, dr, ww, bs), and the host of the sessions has started recording us. I'm more comfortable on EB, so I'm on EB for now. I haven't played with a group regularly for two years.

For the recording I played an MTD Kingston Heir with Labella Deep-Talkin' Bass strings through a Sansamp Bass DI, which sounded good -- pretty old school. I noticed that on tunes with a swing feel 1)I tended to play on top of the beat compared to everyone else, and to rush the tempos at times 2) despite this, the tempos often dragged during improvised solos 3) the group didn't swing.

The interpersonal dynamic is a factor here, too. I'm not the leader, and the drummer and the leader (saxes) both have strong personalities.

FWIW, I rarely play with a drummer; I mostly play in trios and I AM the rhythm section. I'd appreciate suggestions about how I can best use this opportunity to improve.
First thing I do when I'm not locking in is to turn down my amp. Then I focus on landing my notes right in time with the snare. Lastly, play swing and slow tempos with metronome beating only one beat per measure.
 
...
The drummer places himself at a distance from the other players. He prefers to be far away from us and to play rather loudly.
...

How far away? A few feet? Several feet? Several metres?

I tried to start a conversation about something else yesterday, but the two things seem related...
Jamulus, Latency, Timing, Feel and Groove

For context, 10m equates to a 58ms 'round trip', which seems to be enough to become problematic. He may well be playing off your attack as he hears it, but by the time the drums get back to you your note has moved on.
 
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How far away? A few feet? Several feet? Several metres?

I tried to start a conversation about something else yesterday, but the two things seem related...
Jamulus, Latency, Timing, Feel and Groove

For context, 10m equates to a 58ms 'round trip', which seems to be enough to become problematic. He may well be playing off your attack as he hears it, but by the time the drums get back to you your note has moved on.
Across a large room, perhaps 8-10 feet. Listening to the recordings again, it's clear that I'm having problems with my groove sometimes because I am out of practice playing with others, especially with a drummer. At other times, it seems to be a failure to lock in. I don't think that he's listening to my bass attack very closely; I think he expects me to accommodate his sense of the beat.

I think some more time with the suggestions given here and some more time working with other musicians (it's been two years!) will help. I just have to avoid being discouraged and i have to take responsibility for what I'm doing that's not working.
 
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Snare? Did you mean the hihat or ride symbal?
If the ride or hat is setting the time, sure, but usually I ask for only snare and hat in my mix; the kick attack can be ambiguous when on stage. When things are getting off the rails, I listen closely to the top end of the drum kit. That's all you can do. It doesn't matter how good my time is, that is if I'm playing with someone with their own concept of time and tempo. I get with -their- program no matter how off or wrong it is. Since I'm hired accompany them, I have to throw in and make the best of it. Turning down and listening, and trying my best to find the pocket with them is my best advice.
 
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Snare? Did you mean the hihat or ride symbal?
Seanto, I should add that when a drummer is trying to swing wildly with his ride cymbal hand doing the talking, any of that ride playing, being messy, can really cloud where the pulse is. I'll try to cue off of that if I can, but I will try to get a global picture of where the pulse is. It's a struggle sometimes.
 
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If the ride or hat is setting the time, sure, but usually I ask for only snare and hat in my mix; the kick attack can be ambiguous when on stage. When things are getting off the rails, I listen closely to the top end of the drum kit. That's all you can do. It doesn't matter how good my time is, that is if I'm playing with someone with their own concept of time and tempo. I get with -their- program no matter how off or wrong it is. Since I'm hired accompany them, I have to throw in and make the best of it. Turning down and listening, and trying my best to find the pocket with them is my best advice.

Agreed about the kick. We must be playing different types of swing because without the ride i would rather be playing another style of music! Though the hihat can serve the same purpose depending on the tune/drummer on question. Snare...that is something that adds fun to the beat but it not where i try to necessarily lock in consistently, but i can see definitely wanting to hear it, no doubt.
 
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Seanto, I should add that when a drummer is trying to swing wildly with his ride cymbal hand doing the talking, any of that ride playing, being messy, can really cloud where the pulse is. I'll try to cue off of that if I can, but I will try to get a global picture of where the pulse is. It's a struggle sometimes.

I hear that...a sloppy ride. I see your preference comes from a place of experience that i maybe haven't achieved yet :)
 
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Seanto, there's nothing harder than playing a jazz feel or swing with someone who doesn't know how to play it. All of my practicing, even now, involves 90% playing along with classic recordings. Why would I practice with anyone but the best? LOL. That's how to learn to swing and groove, in my opinion.
 
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