That little A/C receptacle tester....

[agedhorse]

one less variable to worry about. The 220-240 line voltages are more compatible than the lowly 120v available to the US. wonder how much it costs to get that dedicated power line. Not a bar gig equipment item.

How's this true? Globally, you can expect anything from 220 through 240 with tolerances from 200V - 265V, whereas here domestically we typically see 120V which rarely falls below 115V or above 125V under the same conditions. In the US, 120 volts is by far the most universal for end user accessible plug connections.

I regularly pull 14 AWG out and fish 12 AWG THHN in place of it where I can and when I'm remodeling a wall. Otherwise I rewire the wall when I have it open.

But - yeah - just putting a 20 Amp wall receptacle on a 14 AWG run isn't smart - but it will surely beef up the contacts.

Besides - getting rid of the back-stabs for screw connex is the best idea.

Like I said though - it's all for naught if you're on the end of a string of back-stabs with overheated spring retainers and questionable-when-new push-ins that are just folly in a commercial building. People who run 14 AWG and 15 Amp receptacles in a commercial building should have their thumbs broken.

In California (where I have my commercial experience under the CA Electrical Code), back-stab wiring of receptacles is no longer allowed for commercial installations and 15A general receptacle power circuits are strongly discouraged (though not disallowed). Commercial grade receptacles have dual spring loaded wiping contacts (identical for 15A and 20A other than the additional tab). Totally different than typical residential grade. In fact, I don't think back wiring is even available on listed commercial grade recepts. Now because of all the cheaping out of wiring and receptavles in residential installations, AFCI breakers are now required for many areas of a residential building... the cost is probably greater than just using commercial grade wiring and devices!!!

As far as 20A receptacles on a 15A circuit, this is a gray area because you can put 3 or 4 20 amp receptacles on a single 20A circuit which would defeat the purpose of keying a receptacle to the ampacity of the circuit. You can also you more than 1 15 amp receptacle on a 20A circuit. Where things get specific is when you have a SINGLE receptacle on a circuit, a 15A receptacle (single not duplex) can't be used on a 20A circuit and a 20A receptacle (single not duplex) can't be used on a 15A circuit but other than these, in practice the lines are quite blurred and it often depends on the inspector.

I'm not up on the latest code revision as I'm not doing and power system engineering anymore, instead I'm more current on the UL product safety side of things (which is just as confusing).

 

[SurferJoe46]

How's this true? Globally, you can expect anything from 220 through 240 with tolerances from 200V - 265V, whereas here domestically we typically see 120V which rarely falls below 115V or above 125V under the same conditions. In the US, 120 volts is by far the most universal for end user accessible plug connections.



In California (where I have my commercial experience under the CA Electrical Code), back-stab wiring of receptacles is no longer allowed for commercial installations and 15A general receptacle power circuits are strongly discouraged (though not disallowed). Commercial grade receptacles have dual spring loaded wiping contacts (identical for 15A and 20A other than the additional tab). Totally different than typical residential grade. In fact, I don't think back wiring is even available on listed commercial grade recepts. Now because of all the cheaping out of wiring and receptavles in residential installations, AFCI breakers are now required for many areas of a residential building... the cost is probably greater than just using commercial grade wiring and devices!!!

As far as 20A receptacles on a 15A circuit, this is a gray area because you can put 3 or 4 20 amp receptacles on a single 20A circuit which would defeat the purpose of keying a receptacle to the ampacity of the circuit. You can also you more than 1 15 amp receptacle on a 20A circuit. Where things get specific is when you have a SINGLE receptacle on a circuit, a 15A receptacle (single not duplex) can't be used on a 20A circuit and a 20A receptacle (single not duplex) can't be used on a 15A circuit but other than these, in practice the lines are quite blurred and it often depends on the inspector.

I'm not up on the latest code revision as I'm not doing and power system engineering anymore, instead I'm more current on the UL product safety side of things (which is just as confusing).

I did remodels mostly in Idyllwild and Temecula and all over the Orange and Riverside county areas. Pulling 12AWG in when the sheers were off was easy - especially if we were chasing carpenter ants. All the walls had to be pulled as regular fumigation was mostly unsuccessful.

One guy in Big Bear City even had his heater controls all wired in 12AWG.


Anyway come to Montana and watch the 'electrician' use a convenient water or gas pipe for the common home run back to the panel.

Electrical 'Inspections" here are a drive-by, three or more weeks after the inspection is requested. If the house isn't burned to the foundation (if it even has one), then it passes the electrical test.

The building inspectors authorized a guy to build a house 6" below the normal Spring Water table - so far he's had three floors 'float' up off the the underlayment. Carpet was wet the day after it was installed - not just 'wet' - but soaked!

He can't live in it (mold) and cant sell or rent it either unless he specifies that it has a full-sized bottom floor wading pool.

The plans for the site were all inspected, passed and signed-off.



I've built, demo'd and rebuilt/remodeled homes in SoCal - and what happens here is beyond strange - almost evil I'd say.

I've seen the well AND the water heater share the same 50 Amp pair of Siamese'd breakers.

I saw a guy cut all the pigtails ( What are those for? ! ) off a bank of 36 GFCI breakers and roped the common return runs back to a buss bar up high on a top-loaded panel.

An inspector signed it off, approved the pole drop, shoved the meter in and nothing worked. Doh!

Now all the Neutrals are too short to reach the GFCIs and with their legs cut off, they are useless. What a mess! He asked me to fix it for him.

Nope. Ain't touching it.


FWIW: It's funny - but I have both 208 and 240 in my garage. I'm not experienced in 208/3⌀ electricity - so I've capped it off at the panel.


That 208/3⌀ supply is likely a mistake by the local power co-op. There used to be milking and cooling machines on this property.

.

 

[BadExample]

FWIW: It's funny - but I have both 208 and 240 in my garage. I'm not experienced in 208/3⌀ electricity - so I've capped it off at the panel.


That 208/3⌀ supply is likely a mistake by the local power co-op. There used to be milking and cooling machines on this property.

I don't recall the details, but at my last job we had 208 3 phase. IIRC it was some sort of trick to get 3 phase without a new power feed and works good enough for some or most stuff. I think they claimed to be commercial, not industrial.

 

[Wild_Bill_57]

Sounds like you may have a Delta leg service. They are not that common anymore.

 

[agedhorse]

It wasn't uncommon to have 240 delta and a 120/208 wye service depending on the specific needs. Some specialized equipment was only available with 240V 3 phase motors, especially back in "the day". The usual solution for 120/240V 1 ph loads was to use a 240V, 3Ph transformer with a grounded center-tap for the 120/240V loads, but this doesn't work as well if you need a lot of 120V loads because the transformer must then be oversized to cover these unbalanced loads.

Nothing that makes me sicker then to look as a jacked up electrical installation. Generally, it costs no more to do it right than to do it wrong, and often it's less expensive (especially in the long run)

 

[Chuck M]

Expensive to do it wrong? For sure. The total bill to repair my Aguilar AG 700 and my Shuttle 9.2 including shipping was $724.20. I check every outlet every time now.

 

[agedhorse]

Expensive to do it wrong? For sure. The total bill to repair my Aguilar AG 700 and my Shuttle 9.2 including shipping was $724.20. I check every outlet every time now.

Wow, I know the Shuttle wasn't all that expensive to repair... yikes!

 

[Chuck M]

Labor AG 700 repair, 1 hr, MP171207 $95.00
150-188 AG 700 Preamp Assembly $120.00
250-285 ICEpower 700ASC $280.00

The preamp and the power amp were burned beyond repair. I was not surprised since I saw the fire and smoke when it happened.

Again, Andy, I thank you for repairing my Shuttle quickly and at a reasonable price. I was actually glad that the Aguilar sustained the major damage because they are still available and I could have replaced it if necessary. In a way, I guess it is getting "replaced" because it will be new inside.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

Good stuff. I guess my question would be : You get to the gig and test all the outlets on stage, and they are all wired incorrectly. What do you do ?

Refuse to plug my gear into that mess.

 

[Drgonzonm]

I don't recall the details, but at my last job we had 208 3 phase. IIRC it was some sort of trick to get 3 phase without a new power feed and works good enough for some or most stuff. I think they claimed to be commercial, not industrial.

It has been my experience 208 3 phase is usually Wye, so hot to ground is 120, delta would be 208 hot to ground. Always verify. For example, the buildings in downtown Albuquerque have 208 3 phase service panels. (The local power company states this in one of their contractor manuals).

How's this true? Globally, you can expect anything from 220 through 240 with tolerances from 200V - 265V, whereas here domestically we typically see 120V which rarely falls below 115V or above 125V under the same conditions. In the US, 120 volts is by far the most universal for end user accessible plug connections.



In California (where I have my commercial experience under the CA Electrical Code), back-stab wiring of receptacles is no longer allowed for commercial installations and 15A general receptacle power circuits are strongly discouraged (though not disallowed). Commercial grade receptacles have dual spring loaded wiping contacts (identical for 15A and 20A other than the additional tab). Totally different than typical residential grade. In fact, I don't think back wiring is even available on listed commercial grade recepts. Now because of all the cheaping out of wiring and receptavles in residential installations, AFCI breakers are now required for many areas of a residential building... the cost is probably greater than just using commercial grade wiring and devices!!!

As far as 20A receptacles on a 15A circuit, this is a gray area because you can put 3 or 4 20 amp receptacles on a single 20A circuit which would defeat the purpose of keying a receptacle to the ampacity of the circuit. You can also you more than 1 15 amp receptacle on a 20A circuit. Where things get specific is when you have a SINGLE receptacle on a circuit, a 15A receptacle (single not duplex) can't be used on a 20A circuit and a 20A receptacle (single not duplex) can't be used on a 15A circuit but other than these, in practice the lines are quite blurred and it often depends on the inspector.

I'm not up on the latest code revision as I'm not doing and power system engineering anymore, instead I'm more current on the UL product safety side of things (which is just as confusing).

regarding those power conditioners, I believe the conversation was about the 4000va unit, unless a special recpt is place, I stand by my comment, it is not a plug in unit. The 1000va can be, and should be a dedicated circuit.

One of the tricks when setting up amps, is looking at the recpts, many times you will see numbers on the plates, the numbers are there to identify panel and breaker location. Knowing this, can reduce problems with trips. And grounding.

 

[agedhorse]

It has been my experience 208 3 phase is usually Wye, so hot to ground is 120, delta would be 208 hot to ground. Always verify.

With delta, only 2 of the 3 corners will show 208V to ground. The third corner should show zero volts as most are required to be corner grounded.

Normally, the 208V wye center is grounded, so you will see 120V on all 3 corners (or legs)

regarding those power conditioners, I believe the conversation was about the 4000va unit, unless a special recpt is place, I stand by my comment, it is not a plug in unit. The 1000va can be, and should be a dedicated circuit.

Larger power conditioners (assuming this is a double-conversion type with a PWM inverter) certainly can and often are plug connected. They are often universal 100-240V rated inputs, and automatically select the proper internal operating mode. We used to provide L5-30, 50A CA new style twists and L6-20 or L6-30 circuits for these kinds of devices regularly (along with video projectors) with customized breakouts for whatever was being powered that day.

One of the tricks when setting up amps, is looking at the recpts, many times you will see numbers on the plates, the numbers are there to identify panel and breaker location. Knowing this, can reduce problems with trips. And grounding.

This doesn't tell you what other loads/receptacles may be on that circuit... like the other side of the wall receptacles in a hotel ballroom complex. Surprise, coffeemaker on P3-36 too

 

[Drgonzonm]

With delta, only 2 of the 3 corners will show 208V to ground. The third corner should show zero volts as most are required to be corner grounded.

Normally, the 208V wye center is grounded, so you will see 120V on all 3 corners (or legs)




Larger power conditioners (assuming this is a double-conversion type with a PWM inverter) certainly can and often are plug connected. They are often universal 100-240V rated inputs, and automatically select the proper internal operating mode. We used to provide L5-30, 50A CA new style twists and L6-20 or L6-30 circuits for these kinds of devices regularly (along with video projectors) with customized breakouts for whatever was being powered that day.


This doesn't tell you what other loads/receptacles may be on that circuit... like the other side of the wall receptacles in a hotel ballroom complex. Surprise, coffeemaker on P3-36 too

I am limiting my discussion to the pcr-m conditioners referenced on page 11. See page 4 of the operator manual for the manufacturers recommended circuit breaker sizes.
I have not seen seen any 208 delta, but do know they exist.
It is my understanding, that delta corner grounded is not recommended for New installations. I have seen plants originally wired for delta converted to Wye, because the ahj asked for it.

 

[byacey]

I am limiting my discussion to the pcr-m conditioners referenced on page 11. See page 4 of the operator manual for the manufacturers recommended circuit breaker sizes.
I have not seen seen any 208 delta, but do know they exist.
It is my understanding, that delta corner grounded is not recommended for New installations. I have seen plants originally wired for delta converted to Wye, because the ahj asked for it.

Years ago I used to service some Logetronics contact printers for an aerial photography company. At some point the owners felt that they were sensitive to power fluctuations, so they installed some AC power conditioners. I never did delve into them, but I have a suspicion that they were a saturable core 1:1 transformer, or something similar. I recall they faintly emitted 60 cycle hum, but not the thumping one would expect from a saturated core.

I doubt these would work very well with audio gear though, as the square wave harmonics are difficult to filter out completely.