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Double Bass The bass I bought
- Thread starter Eric Swanson
- Start date
Congratulations Eric, the bass looks great and based on all the work that has been done, I bet it plays and sounds great!
All The Best
T
All The Best
T
Thank you, friends, for the kind words. Any and all credit goes to Jed Kriegel who created this bass, as it is now.
As I said before, I also owe much gratitude to the other luthiers; Michael Hartery, Kurt Ratering, and John Styklunas, who "schooled" me on what I was actually looking at and playing as I considered this instrument.
Each one of them commented on the high level of work that Jed had done on the bass, "spotless" was the word one of them used. Two of them gave it the "inside/out" inspection, and in so doing, found several areas of work that delighted them, in a luthiery kind of way...
Part of why I dig this bass is that it reminds me of a short series of furniture pieces I did in partnership with artist Rachel Paxton, several years ago, about the difference between the external appearance and the internal reality of things (people, in particular). We did a few pieces with funky, distressed exteriors, oxidized metal, paint filled with sand, etc., but with lush, detailed, carefully appointed woodwork interiors. When I saw this bass, and played it, the lights went on in my mind...
As I said before, I also owe much gratitude to the other luthiers; Michael Hartery, Kurt Ratering, and John Styklunas, who "schooled" me on what I was actually looking at and playing as I considered this instrument.
Each one of them commented on the high level of work that Jed had done on the bass, "spotless" was the word one of them used. Two of them gave it the "inside/out" inspection, and in so doing, found several areas of work that delighted them, in a luthiery kind of way...
Part of why I dig this bass is that it reminds me of a short series of furniture pieces I did in partnership with artist Rachel Paxton, several years ago, about the difference between the external appearance and the internal reality of things (people, in particular). We did a few pieces with funky, distressed exteriors, oxidized metal, paint filled with sand, etc., but with lush, detailed, carefully appointed woodwork interiors. When I saw this bass, and played it, the lights went on in my mind...
Be careful, it's words like that which lure you to the dark side.
i played tuba in HS in band and orchestra. i wouldnt mind owning a DB.
Tuba and bass guitar are "gateway" instruments. Before you know it, you'll have a bow in hand and a needle in your arm.
Eirc,
Nice bass! Congrats.
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
Tuba and bass guitar are "gateway" instruments. Before you know it, you'll have a bow in hand and a needle in your arm.
Eirc,
Nice bass! Congrats.
Not to mention a drawer full of expensive strings!
Nice bass, Eric!
Jed is totally the man. Whenever I scrape together the bread to restore my bass (a Claudot, says Jed), he's the one to do the work.
Best, Rick McLaughlin
Jed is totally the man. Whenever I scrape together the bread to restore my bass (a Claudot, says Jed), he's the one to do the work.
Best, Rick McLaughlin
- Mar 19, 2002
- 800
- 130
- 53
- Disclosures
- President: Upton Bass String Instrument Co.
Very kind of you to say, Eric. You, Jack, and Gary have all been helpful during this process. Thank you all.
Interesting week of end pin experimentation.
I needed a large diameter endpin because of my height and pin extension, and I like the positive locking of the New Harmony endpin mechanism, but the carbon fiber pin killed the punch and bloom in the low end.
In the past week, I experimented with .5 inch steel rod and pipe, then the steel pipe filled with various filler rods (steel, brass, etc., wrapped with tape in three places, so that they didn't rattle), to experiment with different masses.
Lots of A/B/C'ing...
The current winner is the solid .5 inch steel rod. The room-filling bottom is back.
Interesting process and experiment. It confirms a post I read by Arnold Schnitzer, saying he had experienced the same thing when he removed the steel pin on another bass. When he replaced the steel, the sound returned.
Interesting to note that in the Chuck Traeger book, he is adamant about always using a wood or carbon fiber pin. I found the opposite to be true, in this case. The light pins caused the sound to dissipate and have no "center" or punch; the steel makes my bass louder, punchier, and fuller.
I needed a large diameter endpin because of my height and pin extension, and I like the positive locking of the New Harmony endpin mechanism, but the carbon fiber pin killed the punch and bloom in the low end.
In the past week, I experimented with .5 inch steel rod and pipe, then the steel pipe filled with various filler rods (steel, brass, etc., wrapped with tape in three places, so that they didn't rattle), to experiment with different masses.
Lots of A/B/C'ing...
The current winner is the solid .5 inch steel rod. The room-filling bottom is back.
Interesting process and experiment. It confirms a post I read by Arnold Schnitzer, saying he had experienced the same thing when he removed the steel pin on another bass. When he replaced the steel, the sound returned.
Interesting to note that in the Chuck Traeger book, he is adamant about always using a wood or carbon fiber pin. I found the opposite to be true, in this case. The light pins caused the sound to dissipate and have no "center" or punch; the steel makes my bass louder, punchier, and fuller.
Continuing the endpin experimentation. Probably going to try stainlesss steel and brass rod next, maybe titanium rod, and probably some home-brewed, multi-layer brass tube + carbon fiber or stainless or titanium core.
I have clearly lost my mind, but then, who would notice? I am truly amazed at how differently the bass responds and sounds with various materials. I think that it is a further testament to the work Jed did that the bass itself is so transparent and responsive that the endpin makes such a difference.
Interesting website with (somewhat cryptic graphics) but thoughtful endpin notes and options (the actual endpins are mostly for cello, but some are for bass). I have emailed some with the owner Mike Oishi, who has been great in his endpin-related thoughtfulness. He gave me info on a place that would custom make me a .5" pin, of any metal combination I wanted, but he encouraged me to experiment on my own, as a less costly option. Far down, on the endpin descriptions, he mentions Gary Karr currently using a brass and carbon fiber combo rod on his Ham bass:
Link Removed
(bass endpins are at the bottom of the page)
Plus here is a nice, easy, online metals source I just found, through my work (for rod and seamless tube):
Invalid Link Removed
I have clearly lost my mind, but then, who would notice? I am truly amazed at how differently the bass responds and sounds with various materials. I think that it is a further testament to the work Jed did that the bass itself is so transparent and responsive that the endpin makes such a difference.
Interesting website with (somewhat cryptic graphics) but thoughtful endpin notes and options (the actual endpins are mostly for cello, but some are for bass). I have emailed some with the owner Mike Oishi, who has been great in his endpin-related thoughtfulness. He gave me info on a place that would custom make me a .5" pin, of any metal combination I wanted, but he encouraged me to experiment on my own, as a less costly option. Far down, on the endpin descriptions, he mentions Gary Karr currently using a brass and carbon fiber combo rod on his Ham bass:
Link Removed
(bass endpins are at the bottom of the page)
Plus here is a nice, easy, online metals source I just found, through my work (for rod and seamless tube):
Invalid Link Removed
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
Great experiment Eric - thanks for reporting!
I don't suppose you're recording any of these?
Hi Jake,
No, just my usual humbling/sobering practice videos (I take to watch for technical weirdness), done with my Flip video.
Sadly, I do not have a great recording setup handy.The quality of the audio on the Flip is not particularly subtle, although it is a pretty cool camera...
Best thing I can do is verbal. So far:
Carbon fiber: (arco) more penetrating in higher register, more highs and mids, loss of bottom end "fatness" and darkness, harder to start low strings; (pizz) loss of punch and low end, loss of "pwah" on pizz attack, loss of sustain.
Steel tube (with different diameter steel rod fillers, wrapped with masking tape): (arco) somewhere in the middle, ranging from the empty tube (louder, brighter, less bottom end) to the heaviest filled tube (almost as full sounding as the solid steel rod); arco string starting (on E) is not as easy as solid rod, but easier than carbon fiber; (pizz) again, somewhere in the middle range; more bottom, but not as thunderous as the solid rod.
Steel solid rod (low-grade, bought at Lowe's"): (arco) greatly increased bottom end "bloom" and volume, increased darkness, slightly less piercing in higher register, but sweeter, more plaintive/compelling/vocal higher sound, easy string starting on E string; (pizz) wonderful "pwah" pizz attack, loud, blooming, sustaining E string (with no decrease in volume from A to E strings), more sustain on all strings, overall the most "guts," "center," and "bottom" to the sound (of options tried, so far).
Probably the stainless steel and brass rods next...
Harder to start a string because the materials different? Wow i never knew endpin materials were so important....
You and me, both. It is most noticeable, arco, on the A and E strings, like, with the Beethoven 5th trio; with the carbon fiber pin, it sounds like a bit too much like stump grinding (compared to the steel pin)...
(not that I can play it well, these days, with either end pin, frankly)
Or, when you dip into the E-plane quickly for just one or two notes. With the steel pin, I don't even think about it. With the carbon fiber, I sort of hope for the best...
(not that I can play it well, these days, with either end pin, frankly)Or, when you dip into the E-plane quickly for just one or two notes. With the steel pin, I don't even think about it. With the carbon fiber, I sort of hope for the best...
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
I was using a CF tube with an oak dowel core and recently switched it out for KC Strings' steel pin. Everything really tightened up and the bass became more centered with less spread. Volume is may now be slightly less but there isn't much difference and because the notes sre more solid they probably carry better.
One benefit I didn't expect was that the bass feels more solid. Even though the CF pin seemed stiff it must have had some flex to it.
One benefit I didn't expect was that the bass feels more solid. Even though the CF pin seemed stiff it must have had some flex to it.
Clink,
Same experience here. I do not understand the physics of it, but my vague, half-baked theory is that it may just be that the bottom of the rib wreath does better when it is anchored a bit more. I read a post you wrote on a thread where you were commenting on the reliable tactic of getting a better sound by digging your pin into a stage; maybe pin mass, stiffness, and material is part of the same thing. Perhaps the rubber balls, caps, whathaveyou we put on our endpins are also allowing some sort of vibration that is dissipating energy away from sound production.
I am starting to think just the opposite of what Chuck Traeger says in his book; that for "optimum sound" it is not a matter of the lightest pin (necessarily), but the pin that works for your bass, sound, etc.
I am also wondering (without any lab testing, education, or knowledge, really
) if isolating the bottom of the rib wreath, the right amount, somehow channels more energy into more vibratory components, i.e. the top and back. I certainly do not know.
I do know that I sent back my carbon fiber pin, to use the money to try different metal rods...
Same experience here. I do not understand the physics of it, but my vague, half-baked theory is that it may just be that the bottom of the rib wreath does better when it is anchored a bit more. I read a post you wrote on a thread where you were commenting on the reliable tactic of getting a better sound by digging your pin into a stage; maybe pin mass, stiffness, and material is part of the same thing. Perhaps the rubber balls, caps, whathaveyou we put on our endpins are also allowing some sort of vibration that is dissipating energy away from sound production.
I am starting to think just the opposite of what Chuck Traeger says in his book; that for "optimum sound" it is not a matter of the lightest pin (necessarily), but the pin that works for your bass, sound, etc.
I am also wondering (without any lab testing, education, or knowledge, really
) if isolating the bottom of the rib wreath, the right amount, somehow channels more energy into more vibratory components, i.e. the top and back. I certainly do not know.I do know that I sent back my carbon fiber pin, to use the money to try different metal rods...
Congrats on your new bass. I think the end pin issue is a frequency
coupling mechanism with the floor. I made an EUB that attaches to a drum stand. Before I hooked the stand up I placed the bass between my knees and rested the bottom of the bass on the floor. What an amazing difference this made. The EUB had zero low end when raised up off the floor. The mass of the floor provides an added frequency boost. Perhaps a steal end pin provides the stiffest connection with minimal energy loss. Or the floor becomes part of the instrument via the end pin. It would be cool to somehow play with this coupling more - what would happen it you could connect the vibration energy of the bass directly to the floor?
coupling mechanism with the floor. I made an EUB that attaches to a drum stand. Before I hooked the stand up I placed the bass between my knees and rested the bottom of the bass on the floor. What an amazing difference this made. The EUB had zero low end when raised up off the floor. The mass of the floor provides an added frequency boost. Perhaps a steal end pin provides the stiffest connection with minimal energy loss. Or the floor becomes part of the instrument via the end pin. It would be cool to somehow play with this coupling more - what would happen it you could connect the vibration energy of the bass directly to the floor?
