• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass The different ways of approaching Improvisation..

#181
Ed Fuqua said:
Playing along with recordings has a few problems, to wit:
1. lost in the morass - basically it doesn't matter what you play or where it falls in the time stream, the recording allows you the illusion that you are still playing "with " it.
.
Click to expand...
I let this one, slide by.. I am sorry, I have had a very different experience than you mentioned. The "collective time" seems to be true... but what ELSE is true is when I play with MOST cats (actually), most do not swing, groove ( call it what you wish ) as much as the best, not nearly as well. And some people are weak at it... and it is very uncomfortable playing with them.
Maybe you think a sax player just fits into the River of collective time, but from playing with sooo many musicians, I came to a different conclusion. Most sax, trumpet, vocalists do not play in a pocket, esp come solo time.
Anyones groove insufficiency, is felt collectively.
The strongest tend to do like cream does in coffee, rise to the top.
I have become almost too sensitive to the time of all players in a band. I am keenly aware of those with stronger time.
One of the strongest you may know- Joe Coccuzo,
Purdie had very strong time. etc. Most are in the middle.
 
#186
I think we all need to back off here and take several deep breaths!

First off, isn't TalkBass about the free exchange of ideas in a respectful environment? Let's debate the content of the ideas expressed, not the depth of the presenter's resume! Suraci has presented a perspective different from many here, and I believe he means no disrespect to any of the pro players/teachers here. He is obviously no spring chicken himself, so let's stop diss-ing him for his resume and for having a view that seems to run counter to the main threads on this topic. He's really espousing a very real-world, experiential, step-by-step process of learning; nothing wrong with that! I think it's a perspective that less-experienced players need to hear.

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what Suraci says. I think he and I are of a similar age and may have shared some similar experiences. I began playing electric bass on the South Side of Chicago in the 1960's, sitting in with blues legends like Buddy Guy, Junior Wells, and Howlin' Wolf. Lots of roots, lots of simple repetitive bass lines; you had to get into the hypnotic trance effect of the groove. My first stabs at jazz were learning Jimmy Smith's feet (or was it his left hand?) and Louis Satterfield's walking lines from B.B. King records. I listened to Kind of Blue a lot during this period, but wasn't ready to attempt Paul Chambers. My first upright bass experience was playing bluegrass and old-time music in W. Virginia in the early 70's. ALL roots and fifths here, and even simpler repetitive parts. But once again, it wasn't about the parts I was playing, but about the groove of the whole band, which when it's right becomes so strong that it just picks you up and carries you along with it and playing becomes effortless! Since then I've played almost every style of popular music, and especially for the last 20 years or so jazz on upright. I've used many techniques and tools to help me improve. Probably most influential has been sitting at the feet of George Mraz, Santi DeBriano, and Skip Bey in the limited time I spent with them absorbing their sound.

I'm no Luddite, and happily make use of what new technology has to offer (my best friend these days is iRealb during gig-less spells!), but I too mourn the disappearance of some of these "older" ways of learning that Siraci mentions. If some of this can be retained and combined with some of the more formal technical ways of learning how to play jazz that have been developed, wouldn't we all be better off?
 
#187
What is a Luddite?? Thank you for your calm voice of balanced reason.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Attributed to a wiser man than most- Voltaire. A good idea for this forum. To reiterate I am here for those players who may need to hear a different point of view- players who may hopefully view this thread in the coming months. It is my empathy for those people who might find the one track- mono- version of learning music a bit stultifying. I don't say that to be sarcastic, but to speak plainly and impersonally. Music has a distinctly impersonal side to it as well.
Again and again, I keep being personally attacked- (being a former New Yorker, I can handle easily)- instead of my suggestions about the predominance of roots on strong beats and essence of bass playing- groove and accompanying role- even Jaco, Marcus, Stanley C were masters at accompanying. You crawl before you walk. Most here are barely walking. I am here to help those who have need of it.

Thank you my fellow South side bass player for your courage and support!
 
#188
A Luddite is one who shuns technology.

Here are some tools/techniques I've used over the years that have helped me become a better bass player and may be of some use to less-experienced players:
  • Rufus Reid's "The Evolving Bassist" and "Evolving Upward"
  • Mike Richmond's "Modern Walking Bass Techniques" -- great for learning all those percussive sounds and drops that upright jazz players use to help create and push the groove along -- also an antidote to "boring root-oriented" bass lines!
  • Audacity -- a free sound editing program that lets you slow down mp3 files -- great for learning solos
  • iRealb - a great app for iPhone, iPad, Android, Kindle, etc. -- has charts to 1200 jazz standards, and will play any of them in several styles in bass-drums-piano play-alongs. I bring my phone to gigs now instead of 4 Real Books!
  • Practicing with a metronome set to 2&4 -- makes the metronome swing (sort of!)
  • Thinking of walking lines at fast tempos as eighth notes at half the tempo (thank you, Hal Galper!)
  • Playing LOTS of duo gigs without a drummer -- no one to rely on to create the groove but yourself!
  • Getting your a** kicked by better players!

Hope this helps!
 
#189
cire113 said:
thanks for that file hdiddy..

Im gonna just start singing a lot... and transcribing stuff with my voice rather than get frustrated with the bass....

Then hopefully once i have all these good ideas i can sing i can just transfer it to bass.. can't sing can't play


Im playing little blues for fun.. My improvisation approach: don't think lol

Blues practice - YouTube
Click to expand...

Hmmm... just saw the youtube link buried amonst the other noise. As they say, be the example you want to see.

Cire, sounds good. My $.02:

1) The notes at the beginning of the vid are a little short. Try for more of a legato sound where each note is long and kinda blends into the next. You want this feeling of creating a carpet for others to solo over. Keep your volume consistent and try to see if you can bring out the max amount of swing just through walking. Listening to Count Basie's band really nails it for me:
7) Try learning a few blues heads if you don't have some under your belt already. Playing a blues that is associated with some head will change your relationship to the blues changes as you will be playing in relation to something. IMO, it makes playing a blues and making something coherent easier and something that sounds better.

Nice work, keep at it. Also, kudos for having the balls to post a vid of your playing.
 
#191
Isn't Barry Harris the man when it comes to roots/chord tones on strong beats? Def not a new idea. Hell, he's been teaching that method since like forever right? I'm guessing it prolly wasn't his idea to begin with either.

As a bassist doing a walk for usual jazz playing, if you're not playing lots of roots and chord tones on strong beats, you're probably not doing your job.
 
#192
Bass playing roots is centuries old. Where is Salvador Dali when I need him? When all the dust and noise settles down, let's examine popular songs.
I will not be shouted down
But I will happily discuss specific bass lines. I think it would be fun and educational for us all to discuss note choices of tunes that are well known.
Less known songs are more problematic .

Regarding Damon taking issue with the term "different ", I didn't take the op's use of the term "different" to mean unique aspect of different , but merely the variety aspect of the term "different" . Like when you say "let's eat something different "
To those who do not like my approach please ignore me.

So nominations for tunes to look at!
 
#197
I have not listened to Ahmad Jamal's But Not For Me, since high school.
I recall loving it; within the week ( after.Dec activity ) I will buy it.

I played Oye Como Va last night and was struck by the high % of repetitive Roots in the 6 note bassline. The whole point of playing that song is the WAY you play those 6 notes.

So January But Not For Me
 
#199
Sal Dali came into public awareness when I was young
I believe he represented surrealism
That concept came to mind as I was responding- surreal to be arguing in this way.
We are stuck on a very primary point about bass playing ( bass lines ARE part of improvisation - )
I have yet to hear from a sizable group here- a unanimous affirmation that bass lines ( not solo ) are about the primacy of roots on strong beats. As I put it "the art of playing roots".
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back