• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass The different ways of approaching Improvisation..

#161
hdiddy said:
Yes. I'm also trying to hear the melody in my head at the same time too.

My latest effort is trying to hear all the subdivisions while hearing melody and harmony. Long hard road.
Click to expand...

If tunes like All The Things You Are , are on your roster, maybe try easier songs, with chords that do not in anyway leave the home key. I hate to suggest it, because I don't care for this tune but On Broadway!!! Benson kills on it, so that is very advanced, but the chords are simple. Basically a variation of ( in key of C ) of C F and G.

DO not be afraid to be a square... play parts of the melody.
Play blues licks. You are trying to get used to a new thing, so keep it simple.
 
#162
suraci said:
Let me attempt to give my take on it, as I am here to help people struggling with things bass; not so much you, an acknowledged good solid experienced pro.
Click to expand...

Sorry but this is a little too much considering that Ed put out a book on walking basslines (Walking Bassics).

Ed not helping struggling people? I don't think so. It's more like Ed doesn't help people too full of themselves - I don't blame him for that either. In terms of contribution, he's probably one of the few that has contributed the most on this forum. His perspectives have affected many of us toward our approach to music. If anything, he doesn't BS and that's what many of us prize him for.

@Cire: I stole some of DURRLs ideas that he gives his students at his university.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
IMO, singing is everything. If you don't hear it in your head, you're bs'ing or just "getting by".
 
#163
hdiddy said:
Sorry but this is a little too much considering that Ed put out a book on Walking Basslines.

Ed not helping struggling people? I don't think so. It's more like Ed doesn't help people too full of themselves. In terms of contribution, he's probably one of the few that has contributed the most on this forum. His perspectives have affected many of us toward our approach to music. If anything, he doesn't BS and that's what many of us prize him for.

@Cire: I stole some of DURRLs ideas that he gives his students at his university. See the "preliminary studies" on this PDF.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
IMO, singing is everything. If you don't hear it in your head, you're bs'ing.
Click to expand...

So offering knowledge, in the manner I use, constitutes, full of myself? Sorry it appears this way. I suggest you read the books that helped me, and don't worry about my personality.
This is not personal, this is music. Read Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony and Hindemith's Craft of Music Composition, and ignore me, from this point out.
 
#164
As I've said before, do whatever you want. It's no skin off my nose. If there's something in my playing that you like, has meaning for you, and is a direction that you'd like to go, what got me there was the things I've talked about and the methods I've outlined.
If not, then don't bother to try any of that stuff.

Anyway, Good Luck with that and Have a Blessed Day.
 
#167
thanks for that file hdiddy..

Im gonna just start singing a lot... and transcribing stuff with my voice rather than get frustrated with the bass....

Then hopefully once i have all these good ideas i can sing i can just transfer it to bass.. can't sing can't play


Im playing little blues for fun.. My improvisation approach: don't think lol

 
#168
cire113
I am an old musician
I have professionally played mutliple instruments- which in my case makes me a jack of all trades, master of none.
I took up elec bass, because a bandleader offered me a steady gig if zi would learn it. He bought me elec bass and amp and I paid him off.
Between the time he handed me the bass to the time I hit the bandstand was 2 weeks.
I had the advantage of being a half assed pianist previous to the bass though- which means harmony/ theory was already in my hands, ear and mind.
I took to the bass very naturally. I was never a virtuoso, just learned how to groove pretty quickly.
I am a natural at music, but I stopped instrumental practice at a young age, so I am a bit disappointed in myself.
I have watched "new" methods come down the pike for decades.
fast forward to the present
I feel many teachers and players are saying confusing things to students- things that put stages of development out of the natural order- especially from the simplest music, ( blues forms ) gradually to the more and more complex music.
That is why I go against the presiding opinions here at TB, not because I enjoy being told I am self absorbed, or don't listen, but because I am attempting to be a relatively lone voice that just maybe a youngster will listen to, and be saved confusion alone his journey. Learn blues well, it is the basis of so much music including jazz.
Make learning bass, less stressful by only gradually increasing rhythmic and harmonic complexity... be cool as you learn, because your state of mind on the bandstand must be relaxed as possible- of course a little excitement too, but not petrified, or too nervous from overloading your mind with too many details.

1. Bass playing is about relaxed groove
2. about playing roots in order to make the chords ring or resonate maximally
3. It is a primarily rhythmic supportive, accompanying role, with soloing only a small percentage of the time. In sharp contrast to a trumpet or singer.
4 it is about playing repetitious lines without feeling it to be boring in the slightest. On the contrary, it is enjoying creating a nearly hypnotic trancelike groove at times.
5 Like all music, it involves exercise of taste, and discernment about which line or note to play.
6. A bass player never stops playing, unlike most soloists.
7. If he succeeds at the getting very good at creating grooves, he learns a great lesson about music.. once a strong groove is created, all kinds of creative possibiliies just fall into your lap while this groove is unfolding on the bandstand. He learns groove first, over any other consideration.
8. Study and play music that both touches you and is not complex. If complex you will be uptight, and undue nervousness is the "enemy" of music.
 
#169
Sorry for saying it, but none of this below adds up you being able to give good advice on the subject - since what your saying us that what you are able to do came by chance and circumstance as oppossed to specific methods and excercises like the the rest of us.
Since you don't even practice your answer is just "be like me", where Ed and others who practice, study and teach formally have a more concrete answer for how to attain these things if you don't already have them. So - maybe stop clouding the issue!
There are lots of good plays with natural ability who fall by luck or skill into amazing situations.
If a young musician doesn't have your specific advantages, a metronome and many other tradtional tools are in order.

suraci said:
cire113
I am an old musician
I have professionally played mutliple instruments- which in my case makes me a jack of all trades, master of none.
I took up elec bass, because a bandleader offered me a steady gig if zi would learn it. He bought me elec bass and amp and I paid him off.
Between the time he handed me the bass to the time I hit the bandstand was 2 weeks.
I had the advantage of being a half assed pianist previous to the bass though- which means harmony/ theory was already in my hands, ear and mind.
I took to the bass very naturally. I was never a virtuoso, just learned how to groove pretty quickly.
I am a natural at music, but I stopped instrumental practice at a young age, so I am a bit disappointed in myself.
I have watched "new" methods come down the pike for decades.
fast forward to the present
I feel many teachers and players are saying confusing things to students- things that put stages of development out of the natural order- especially from the simplest music, ( blues forms ) gradually to the more and more complex music.
That is why I go against the presiding opinions here at TB, not because I enjoy being told I am self absorbed, or don't listen, but because I am attempting to be a relatively lone voice that just maybe a youngster will listen to, and be saved confusion alone his journey. Learn blues well, it is the basis of so much music including jazz.
Make learning bass, less stressful by only gradually increasing rhythmic and harmonic complexity... be cool as you learn, because your state of mind on the bandstand must be relaxed as possible- of course a little excitement too, but not petrified, or too nervous from overloading your mind with too many details.

1. Bass playing is about relaxed groove
2. about playing roots in order to make the chords ring or resonate maximally
3. It is a primarily rhythmic supportive, accompanying role, with soloing only a small percentage of the time. In sharp contrast to a trumpet or singer.
4 it is about playing repetitious lines without feeling it to be boring in the slightest. On the contrary, it is enjoying creating a nearly hypnotic trancelike groove at times.
5 Like all music, it involves exercise of taste, and discernment about which line or note to play.
6. A bass player never stops playing, unlike most soloists.
7. If he succeeds at the getting very good at creating grooves, he learns a great lesson about music.. once a strong groove is created, all kinds of creative possibiliies just fall into your lap while this groove is unfolding on the bandstand. He learns groove first, over any other consideration.
8. Study and play music that both touches you and is not complex. If complex you will be uptight, and undue nervousness is the "enemy" of music.
Click to expand...
 
#170
hdiddy said:
IMO, singing is everything. If you don't hear it in your head, you're bs'ing or just "getting by".
Click to expand...

It is a nice idea - and singing certainly does a ton - for your music - but no single thing = "everything", no silver bullets. It is all important.
Certainly, when singing isn't part of your practice and you bring it in, it feels huge, but so can the metronome, the bow, Bach, reading Helmholz, reading Schoenberg, etc.
 
#171
My friend, cire113, my assumption is you are doing this, learning bass, for fun, maybe down the road to do gigs. Maybe you already do a gig here and there. In any case you want to improve, as most of us do.
The gentleman, Daemon said my advice is invalid. Maybe it is to some extent, but different advice is useful at different points in time- save my words, and maybe reread 'em from time to time.
Let's move on to some of the advice that btw is not just for you.
1."bass playing is about relaxed groove" what a misleading inappropriate time waster that is, eh, Damon?
Does anyone see my point here? guys who are just a tad "crazy" about getting better with their methods, sometimes get lost in the details and can't see certain angles of vision- such as number one thing - being relaxed while both performing and pursuing music. Hearing all manner of well meaning advice, from all manner of well meaning bassists, can be both confusing and might cause a lack of relaxation ... so I wanted to remind the up coming bass player about this. My apology for that, yeah right!

2. is About the absolute primacy of playing roots. It does not mean mindlessly so. You need to take SIMPLER tunes, with simple bass lines and nail them, period. No arguing about theory of roots vs less roots, just imitate the player who is playing on whatever tune. Take theory slowly, gently. Ask me a question about it if you wish.
Learn from other bass players and their bass notes- could not be simpler.
It is NOT hard IF you take my advice... keep it simple, and relaxed, and enjoyable. Music is about hearing and less about thought. Thought has its place, but too much causes tension. So "lower the bar a bit"... it worked for me!
I apologize to those of you, including Damon, and others, who think I am misguiding our fellow traveller- ha ha ha.

3. Is in two parts- Bass is about accompaniment. I just today listened to legendary bass player Bob Babbitt saying words to this effect. Sooooo sorry about offending anyone here on that score. second part is about the primacy of rhythm. Listen to Mr babbitt on youtube, wonderful guy and player who understands basses role. First learn the BASS role the BASIC role of bass, THEN delve into Victor Wooten Sheehan stuff.

So far we have RHYTHM, Accompaniment role, and primacy Roots also called FUNDAMENTALS ( I mean the freaking LANGUAGE even supports my too obvious statements !) , or the art of playing fundamentals.. aka roots and fifths, which is easy if you play easy songs, the way I did, in my untutored "sink or swim" "trial by fire", method. SOOooo sorry to Damon and other highly educated bass players, who know sooo much much about bass playing. I ought to schedule some lessons with some of you guys real soon, eh?

4. Repetition of a bass part. Another detail that I learned long ago.. Quick anecdote, I am playing a gig with a large sized blues singer and bandleader. he turns to me on stage and criticizes my note choices... too busy, or something or other. I later realized that his pov was valid. Simple is not mandatory, it partly depends on the style of music, but generally bass parts involves less melodic bass parts. Let's not argue, just learn from simple bass parts what to play. Repetition is a common part of many types of music, not all, but many. And simpler repetitious parts, are EASIER to play. They allow you to focus on SIMPLER DIATONIC TONES, GROOVE and being RELAXED. Which are the hallmarks of playing music.
I hope this is not too boring for some of you, you know who you are.

5. Is kind of superfluous, I admit, though still true.

6 Is a reference to endurance and a delineating factor between solo instruments and rhythm players, not necessary, but true.
7 Is a very advanced stage, something to look forward to, and by keeping it simple, with eg blues, country, rock- if you stay simple you will reach the ecstatic levels of the magical synergy of a whole band, much SOONER.
8 Just reiterates all of the above.
There is no way, that I am not going to let younger players know what I know, regardless of your opinions to the contrary.
I have played countless gigs, from concerts ( my first at age 21 with a top recording group ) to clubs with famous musicians in attendance. I have also played with many top musicians, though not at the present time so much.
I have seldom taught, and made my SOLE living playing music as a freelance musician since the sixties.
If my advice is inappropriate to some here, I am laughing at that opinion.

Good luck to you cire113 and others whose minds are still flexible.
 
#175
damonsmith said:
Your advice on what you need isn't in what is on question. It is your advice on how to methodically attain those skills.

Since you did not methodically learn them, you don't have a lot to contribute.
Click to expand...

How do you know how I learned? I already said more than once I am not a teacher. So if an experienced player is not a teacher, you are saying his words are of no value to bass players?
I already understand "a man has to know his limitations" quite well... I cannot hold a candle to some of my favorite teachers, they were unbelievably great at teaching.. not improv.
I realize I do not have certain methods, really truly, I do get it.
A young player who is a born natural, learns hundreds of mini steps, by trial and error, consulting friends, occasional teachers, lots of experience, and even pondering the topic. Then he makes those hundreds of mini processes unconscious; like if a catapillar suddenly became aware, conscious, of all his legs, he would be in trouble.
Another analogy, I found in some popular books ( The Inner Game of ***** ) on tennis, golf, and some other skill. It said, you would NOT take a golf or tennis ( or music lesson ) the week of a big event, tournament, concert... why? Like the many legged insect, you would confuse yourself with too much thinking- the latest method, would likely get in your way... that is until it seeped into the subconscious.
Bird said, 'learn all about music, and then forget it'.
The advice I gave ( up above ) was general attitude information, not methods, obviously.
When cire113 is into it, he should have a relationship with a teacher who reaches him, speaks to him. He may have to try a few teachers, to see who cire best connects with.
 
#176
Cire113 and other interested players- Regarding my advice about generally simplifying whatever you are learning.. eg if you are learning ii V I, back off of it, and go to soul music, like Jaco did, and I did.
Focusing on blues based music- has this purpose for the learner- it allows him to minimize thinking- to maximize relaxation.
Now dig THIS. I am playing a gig last week with an older African Amercian singer who sings "Respect" better than any singer I have done this song with. Maybe not as good as Aretha!! but very convincingly. I was playing piano. As I am playing a tune, she made a comment half under her breath, that goes for likely all of us... something along the lines of " can you play the Blues "? Of course I can, but in the sense she was talking, can this I REALLY kill on the Blues, was her point, not just hit some cool blue notes.
I took her words to heart, for one thing, because long before she said this to me, I knew that my Blues playing ( which is not bad at all ) could certainly be better.
All of this to say- and I am soooo apologetic for again trying to do what I can't do... "impart knowledge" because I apparently did not study a 'method' ... ROTFLMAO and mocking just a widdle bit ) All of this to say.. just because playing simpler musical forms is, well, simple, it is by NO MEANS to be taken that you are a bad mofo at it.
Try to play those "simple" bass lines that famous players have played, try it. See if you can play like those Blues artists. It SEEMS simple on the outside, but the more you live with it, and compare your playing to another fellow or gals playing within the same "simple" genre, you will find that you come up far short. I remember envious musicians from my neighborhood, implying that cats that did session work were just lucky.
Maybe the lower level ones, but even they, were very consistent at what they did... they never messed up, costing producer money.
But the name session players ( I rate myself as in between the lower level and the stars of session work ) had a ton of talent and luck was only a minor factor.
I remember my experience with studio players.. I have never played with people who play the way they do, esp rhythm guys. If no one is paying attention... cire, trust me, it was far from just good luck.
That woman singer, inpsired me to improve my already decent blues playing. I would now like to study gospel music. And NOT the damn harmony as much as the heart of this fabulous music.
If most people here, including me, were in a situation where you had to "produce" in a heavy Blues or Gospel bandstand , you would fall short, trust me. All of this to say, SIMPLE is an illusive and misleading word.
Merry Christmas cire113
 
#177
damonsmith said:
Sorry for saying it, but none of this below adds up you being able to give good advice on the subject - since what your saying us that what you are able to do came by chance and circumstance as oppossed to specific methods and excercises like the the rest of us.
Since you don't even practice your answer is just "be like me", where Ed and others who practice, study and teach formally have a more concrete answer for how to attain these things if you don't already have them. So - maybe stop clouding the issue!
There are lots of good plays with natural ability who fall by luck or skill into amazing situations.
If a young musician doesn't have your specific advantages, a metronome and many other tradtional tools are in order.
Click to expand...

In spite of the barroom bantering between us Damon, I DO respect Ed and his and others' good methods of teaching. Cheers, my friend
 
#179
Again, my detective friend, even if I were a troll
And even if I did not record what I put here in this thread
The only real question:
Is it true or isn't it.
I am not given to a number of practices that are popular here
I don't care for FB MyS etc
And I don't post my recordings in cyberspace
Because for one thing, I do not record my live gigs. And I generally have recorded little in my life, I am drawn to live spontaneous playing.

Ed published a gig of mine where i reluctantly played string bass without benefit of a chordal accompaniment
Thanks Ed
But last week I played elec bass with an excellent jazz pianist
( no recording )
And last year I was recorded during a live gig with 2 of the best players I have ever played with. The guitarist was a top jazz player who came to NAMM and did this jazz gig for whatever his reasons.
HE recorded it, but he has not sent me any of the stuff we did.

This current generation, live in a foreign world to me with all the self publishing and networking going on. In my day we had none of these devices not net

But you guys have my sympathy even you skeptics
I grew up on constant playing and some recording
I never bothered with a business card and only a short time with an agent

I never knew how lucky I was until it all went away.
I truly am sorry that cyberspace and meager work is all that is left.

Btw. I spoke to the jazz pianist about my approach to bass
He said he liked it and I said "do you know why- because I nail the roots of chords".
Someone here mentioned the great Ron Carter saying that he endorsed the playing of a note other than the root on strong beat to avoid monotony.
I admit that I was slightly surprised ( I have never transcribed walking bass lines ) but I thought about Carter and said to myself. This is likely true .
But for ME I say emphasize root on strong beat, not withstanding great bass players advice to play fifths and thirds on strong beat

Only when you are quite advanced and playing with advanced players would I follow the delay the root practice
My position is based on being a keyboardist as well as bass player

I said all of this, with a doubtful profile here at TB
My suggestion is instead of putting your attention on my identity
You would be much wiser to see if my idea actually makes strong basslines

Then we can discuss the issue of being too monotonous
 
#180
I have no problem with bass players following Ed or his teachers advice which I believe are rooted in the genius of Lenny Tristano. I never got into this Master pianist but so what? He is a Master
Now if still with me.. I understand that the best selling jazz album is the fantastic recording "Kind of Blue", I hope you listen to it if you haven't

I just listened to it for analytical reasons a few minutes ago.. It is the most widely acclaimed with the most amazing lineup up of super talents in my memory
I was listening to the tune Kind of Blue
I noted the absolutely killer bass player Mr Chambers
Playing the essentially same notes for an 11 minutes tune

He did not play thirds in place of where roots normally went - according to the ron carter theory- 'because too many roots are boring'- mind you, I have immense respect, nearing reverence for both Mr Carter and Chambers. If Mr Chambers HAD followed the "this is getting a little monotonous/ boring notion, and started "getting creative", he would have hurt the delicate yet long ( 11 minutes was considered long before Coltrane at least for most recordings, excluding jams) groove . If any of you believe you could have chosen better notes than Mr Chambers. Please step up to the front of the forum; I haven't had a good laugh in a while.

Food for thought from your trollish friend
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back