The Fifths Tuning Club

[~M.o.M~]

...not according to these two sources:

Link Removed

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


I also dabble in fifths: C1 G1 D2 A2 and E1 B1 F#2 C#3

There are quite a few well-known DBists, but not so many players on the electric side.
Right now I can only think of Lightning Bolt's Brian Gibson. Oh, and Michael Manring, but he's done so much more tuning wise!

E1 B1 F#2 C#3? Slap that E, fifths style!

I have 1 of my basses tuned CDGA. Each of my basses are tuned differently.

I find playing in different tunings, whatever they may be, to be a very worthwhile exercise for all kinds of different reasons. Exercising your brain is never a bad idea.

Definitely something to add on my Fifths Tuning pros list!

*snip*

You know you've completed the initiation when you're left with no choice than to try it in a live situation. And that's where the love to that tuning starts to bloom!

What convinced me to try the fifths was Joel Quarrington. Specifically, this video here. When he started playing all these double stops, I was amazed. It struck me! He showed a side of the upright that I haven't imagined of before. So I thought that if I ever get to buy a double bass, in 5, 10, 20 or I don't know how many years, I had to tune it in fifths. And the only way to get myself prepared is trying the tuning on my trustworthy RBX 170.

Good thing was that the band I was in at the time wasn't going to cause a drawback at all. The singer played the cello as well, and all I could think of was cello and bass duets.

Now I'm in a metalcore/deathcore band and the guitarists tune in drop C, so I can pretty much do my thing there too.
That doesn't mean I'm a hardcore metalhead, and I hope no one starts seeing me that way!

In the end, there's nothing funnier than giving your a bass to a fellow bassist and have him give you the weird look!

To TapyTap and sevdog:
Would you two like to have a number?

 

[khutch]

In the end, there's nothing funnier than giving your a bass to a fellow bassist and have him give you the weird look!

Well, maybe the look on the guitarist's face when he gets lost and tries to catch up by following your fingers....

The look on the string player's faces if they should try to do the same would also be precious, but in a much different sort of way. We have a pair of teenage sisters at church who play violin, one quite well indeed, the other astoundingly well. I live for the day when one of them asks if they could try my bass! As far as I know no one there has noticed how I tune it although I think the worship pastor has probably noticed that it goes lower than an E and assumes that I tune BEAD.

Dennis Masuzzo is one of the people who helped convince me to try the fifths tuning. He wrote a book about playing the DB tuned in fifths which I found interesting although it may be more useful for a DB player. He plays BG as well and last time I talked to him he still tuned his BG in fourths! He was quite willing to converse with me by email. He once sent me this link too:



You might find it amusing, it is an unusual work to say the least. This was recorded before he tuned in fifths, not that it would have made much difference!

Ken

 

[~M.o.M~]

Well, maybe the look on the guitarist's face when he gets lost and tries to catch up by following your fingers....

Indeed! When I'm jamming with guitarists I always yell at them to stop looking at my fingers and listen to the music! Listening is the most important factor, after all.

The look on the string player's faces if they should try to do the same would also be precious, but in a much different sort of way. We have a pair of teenage sisters at church who play violin, one quite well indeed, the other astoundingly well. I live for the day when one of them asks if they could try my bass! As far as I know no one there has noticed how I tune it although I think the worship pastor has probably noticed that it goes lower than an E and assumes that I tune BEAD.

I have a feeling they'll do what my singer did the other day...
Knowing that the bass is tuned like a cello, she took it up and tried to play. Unfortunately, she didn't have a clue of bass guitar technique and she was reaching the notes by stretching, like a cellist.
She then asked me if it was out of tune. I guess she wasn't used to the bass sound. That, or she tried to get the same notes using finger stretches equivalent to the cello's scale (I hope she did not)!

Dennis Masuzzo is one of the people who helped convince me to try the fifths tuning. He wrote a book about playing the DB tuned in fifths which I found interesting although it may be more useful for a DB player. He plays BG as well and last time I talked to him he still tuned his BG in fourths! He was quite willing to converse with me by email. He once sent me this link too:



You might find it amusing, it is an unusual work to say the least. This was recorded before he tuned in fifths, not that it would have made much difference!

Ken

Playing the Double Bass Tuned in Fifths C-G-D-A! I wanted to buy that book when I started playing in fifths. But it took me too long to decide if I really needed it and as time I passed, I was used to the tuning already.

Nice to know that Dennis is such a talkative person, by the way. I'd be too shy to email him!
It would be interesting to know how he particularly convinced to try the tuning, too.

As for the video, I've watched it before. I'd call it avant-gardish, but unusual seems to fit it better.
I guess that made me believe that he had it tuned in fifths! Regardless, it really shows his expertise on the instrument, and, furthermore, its endless possibilities.
"Pizzi-pizzi-pizzicato! Oh, pizzicato!"

 

[khutch]

I have a feeling they'll do what my singer did the other day...
Knowing that the bass is tuned like a cello, she took it up and tried to play. Unfortunately, she didn't have a clue of bass guitar technique and she was reaching the notes by stretching, like a cellist. She then asked me if it was out of tune. I guess she wasn't used to the bass sound. That, or she tried to get the same notes using finger stretches equivalent to the cello's scale (I hope she did not)!

Is she a cellist as well as a singer? If she is then most likely to her ears your bass is out of tune. If you are like me you tune CGDA to an electronic tuner which puts those pitches on the even tempered scale. Violin, viola, and cello players tune by tuning one string (the A string?) to an external reference. They then tune the other strings against that string in perfect fifths. Hand them a bass guitar tuned in even tempered fifths and the first thing they will do is tune it properly! But after that they should seem right at home on it even with the longer scale and stupid wire frets. Eventually they will realize that if the frets are on the even tempered scale the open strings might as well be too! There are a few cello players here and a few second hand reports of other cello players who tune their bass guitars CGDA and they love it.

Ken

 

[TapyTap]

There are quite a few well-known DBists, but not so many players on the electric side.
Right now I can only think of Lightning Bolt's Brian Gibson. Oh, and Michael Manring, but he's done so much more tuning wise!

There are a few more that I know of, but I'd say we're definitely in the minority.

E1 B1 F#2 C#3? Slap that E, fifths style!

Certainly!

To TapyTap and sevdog:
Would you two like to have a number?

I'm good remaining numberless.

Listening is the most important factor, after all.

Ditto.

Nice to know that Dennis is such a talkative person, by the way. I'd be too shy to email him!

Don't let that stop you from e-mailing Dennis. He is very eager to discuss all things bass.

 

[TapyTap]

Is she a cellist as well as a singer? If she is then most likely to her ears your bass is out of tune. If you are like me you tune CGDA to an electronic tuner which puts those pitches on the even tempered scale. Violin, viola, and cello players tune by tuning one string (the A string?) to an external reference. They then tune the other strings against that string in perfect fifths. Hand them a bass guitar tuned in even tempered fifths and the first thing they will do is tune it properly! But after that they should seem right at home on it even with the longer scale and stupid wire frets. Eventually they will realize that if the frets are on the even tempered scale the open strings might as well be too! There are a few cello players here and a few second hand reports of other cello players who tune their bass guitars CGDA and they love it.

Ken

You took the words right out of my fingers.

 

[MartinStGermain]

Being a player that tunes in fifths myself, I have always wanted to have a place on TalkBass where everyone can discuss the stuff needed to successfully move on to this tuning.
Fingerings, chords, exercises, strings, song tabs and anything else that is of interest.

In my opinion, creating a club for this purpose not only presents the opportunity to talk all things fifths, but also a friendly environment that you can always return to and ask for more.

So, let's begin! Numbers will be given to anyone that has at least one bass tuned this way. One number per bassist.

Thanks for starting the conversation! I appreciate it.

 

[Stubb]

I tuned CGDA for a few years, then got sick of it and went back to standard.

Now I'm back and it feels really natural again. I play fretless only and playing in tune is maybe a bit more of a stretch, literally, but you just have to use your ears.

I think the hardest part is relearning the fingerboard.

The two reasons I do it are ones I rarely read about here:
1. My bass sounds better and more open in fifths. The first time I ever read about fifths was a BP interview with Joel Quarrington, at the time of the Toronto Symphony, and he said his tone was so much more open in fifths than fourths. That stuck in my head for a long while. I find it to be true, at least on my particular instrument.
2. It breaks me out of my normal playing and forces me to think about what notes I want to play versus what patterns I want to play. I find it really helpful for playing different stuff in jam settings. You have to relearn the fingerboard, but if you think about it, you've only got one more string to learn, the C, because you already had G and A strings before. They're just in different spots now.

Consequently I play fewer thirds and sevenths. It's pretty cool.

 

[khutch]

I think someone asked about strings above. It is a loaded topic in that while some string makers claim to have fifths tuned sets, there are many different ways to tune in fifths and one set cannot fit them all anymore than one set fits all the other tunings that bass guitarists use today. Many of us tune CGDA on a four string but I have also tuned GDAE and I have a five string tuned CGDAE. I've also given some thought to FCGD. Then there is Circle K strings who let you select "fifths" from a pull down list but it returns a blank page. I presume they have a fifths tuned set or sets if you ask about them but just haven't taken the time to put them up on the website yet.

A few string makers, Circle K, D'Addario, and Thomastik-Infield have published tension charts for their strings. You can get single strings to build custom sets from Link Removed (for their own strings) and from Bass Strings Online (for several other brands). I build custom sets by using the manufacturer's data to keep the tension at around 40 pounds or by using data from similar strings for those manufacturers who do not provide data. I've also put together a spreadsheet (below) to make string selection easier. It lets you select any Circle K string or any string that BSO sells as singles (as of a few weeks ago) and see what the tension will be for any scale length or tuning. I think it is self explanatory but if anyone tries it and needs help I will try to put together some instructions. Just remember: don't change anything unless it is in a RED font and you won't break anything!

Ken

 

[dwjazz54]

My first instrument was actually the viola, and after playing BG for around two years I picked up a fretless. And, after a while with "standard" 4ths tuning, I experimented with 5ths (CGDA low-high, as both the viola and the cello).
I have to say, just noodling around was a really fun and interesting experience. I long ago concluded that it wasn't really practical for me (primarily for the aforementioned difficulties with the 34" scale), but having seen this thread has got me wanting to go tune the old girl (same fretless!) in 5ths again and see what happens...I've grown as a musician since those days and am curious to see what comes out.
We shall see...

 

[dwjazz54]

The two reasons I do it are ones I rarely read about here:
1. My bass sounds better and more open in fifths. The first time I ever read about fifths was a BP interview with Joel Quarrington, at the time of the Toronto Symphony, and he said his tone was so much more open in fifths than fourths. That stuck in my head for a long while. I find it to be true, at least on my particular instrument.
2. It breaks me out of my normal playing and forces me to think about what notes I want to play versus what patterns I want to play. I find it really helpful for playing different stuff in jam settings. You have to relearn the fingerboard, but if you think about it, you've only got one more string to learn, the C, because you already had G and A strings before. They're just in different spots now.

Also, THIS. Same article planted the seed.

 

[c_maj]

Hey Mom! I also tune my basses to fifths. I'd like a number too, please.

Long story short, I also play the cello (played for several years at my church), but was suddenly asked to be our main bass player 5 years ago. Because my switch was so sudden, I didn't want to flub the songs with a set up that I was unfamiliar with... hence 'cello tuning.

 

[~M.o.M~]

Is she a cellist as well as a singer? If she is then most likely to her ears your bass is out of tune. If you are like me you tune CGDA to an electronic tuner which puts those pitches on the even tempered scale. Violin, viola, and cello players tune by tuning one string (the A string?) to an external reference. They then tune the other strings against that string in perfect fifths. Hand them a bass guitar tuned in even tempered fifths and the first thing they will do is tune it properly! But after that they should seem right at home on it even with the longer scale and stupid wire frets. Eventually they will realize that if the frets are on the even tempered scale the open strings might as well be too! There are a few cello players here and a few second hand reports of other cello players who tune their bass guitars CGDA and they love it.

Ken

Well, she is! You had me studying musical temperaments, thanks to your post.
So, musicians that play the violin, the viola and the cello use pythagorean tuning, right?
It was so naive of me to believe she had things wrong. I also remember giving her my electronic tuner and wondering why she wouldn't tune each of the strings with it.

I'm good remaining numberless.

*snip*

Don't let that stop you from e-mailing Dennis. He is very eager to discuss all things bass.

As you wish.

I will email him. I just need to come across a subject really worth discussing.

Thanks for starting the conversation! I appreciate it.

The pleasure's all mine.

To Eric Cioe this and dwjazz54 this:

It's great that you two gave fifths tuning a second chance.
Since it was technical difficulties that made you drop it, it would be helpful if you were to post any other difficulties you may encounter, be it a general technique issue, a difficult passage or anything of technical nature (string set choice is a common example). This way we can list the common problems of this tuning and, hopefully, its solutions.

I've also put together a spreadsheet (below) to make string selection easier. It lets you select any Circle K string or any string that BSO sells as singles (as of a few weeks ago) and see what the tension will be for any scale length or tuning. I think it is self explanatory but if anyone tries it and needs help I will try to put together some instructions. Just remember: don't change anything unless it is in a RED font and you won't break anything!

Ken

Awesome work there! I'm wondering though, is it normal to show up like Link Removed?

Hey Mom! I also tune my basses to fifths. I'd like a number too, please.

Long story short, I also play the cello (played for several years at my church), but was suddenly asked to be our main bass player 5 years ago. Because my switch was so sudden, I didn't want to flub the songs with a set up that I was unfamiliar with... hence 'cello tuning.

Welcome aboard! You're now the club's #3.

"Hey Mom". Heh, there are times I regret using this silly acronym.

 

[Stubb]

To Eric Cioe Link Removed and dwjazz54 Link Removed:

It's great that you two gave fifths tuning a second chance.
Since it was technical difficulties that made you drop it, it would be helpful if you were to post any other difficulties you may encounter, be it a general technique issue, a difficult passage or anything of technical nature (string set choice is a common example). This way we can list the common problems of this tuning and, hopefully, its solutions.

It was just a matter of wanting to have standard tuning under my fingers again. Standard is certainly easier and for a while the benefits of fifths tuning no longer outweighed the difficulty.

But after a while of playing the same 3rd and 7th based basslines that everyone else has played before, fifths started calling again.

I honestly think the change for me was beginning to play in an originals band again. Then I don't have to worry about figuring out how to play what would lie easily on a standard-tuned bass on my fifths-tuned bass. I just make up what I want, and because the intervals are different, the whole feel is maybe a little unique. I hope.

 

[khutch]

So, musicians that play the violin, the viola and the cello use pythagorean tuning, right?

Not exactly. This is a sore subject every time I try to tell fretless bass players here that they could play with better intonation than many of their fretless bassist idols have. I get all kinds of push back and most of it is pure nonsense. String players attempt to play every note not so much in tune as appropriately. The best ones play every note right on the pitch they intend it to have but the pitch they intend will vary depending on circumstances. I think that solo violinists may play a pythagorean scale at times, a just scale at other times, and even tempered when they are playing against an even tempered accompanying instrument. They play ascending passages using different pitches they use for the same notes on descending passages. They play everything so it sounds "right" whether that matches some standard tuning system or not. String ensembles have to match each other of course and I think they generally play to just intonation, as do vocal ensembles. You can do all that on a fretless bass too but first you have to learn to play notes on the pitch you intend which takes very many more hours of devoted practice than the average TB fretlesss bassist can imagine, and then you have to develop a good sense of what is the right pitch for this note in this situation. It is well beyond me, but I do at least realize what excellent musicians can accomplish with instruments that are not fixed in pitch. I saw an excellent article online about violin intonation once and I would dearly love to post a link to it every time this subject comes up. Alas, I cannot find it anymore.

Awesome work there! I'm wondering though, is it normal to show up like this?

Yeah, that looks right. If you have some specific questions I can answer them. I can make some general comments now. There are four seven string blocks where you can set up a string choice, scale length, tuning, etc. I made four so that people could compare string selections they may be considering and four fit on my laptop's screen comfortably. Each block has seven string slots because I wanted to make it useful for as many people as possible. I am considering baritone guitars and bass VI guitars right now and some baritones have seven strings. Six string basses are fairly typical. If you are one of the few who has more than seven strings you can use two or more blocks to set up your string choices. There are two columns near the center of the page that are mostly red blocks. Those blocks hide cells where you can enter string by string scale lengths (for multi-scale instruments) or string by sting note selections if your tuning doesn't match any of the standard tunings that you can select from one of the cells in the left hand column. To enable string by string note selection you specify the "Free" tuning option in the tuning cell in the left column. To enable string by string scale length specification type "0" (zero) in the scale length cell in the left column.

I am still finding bugs from time to time so if something doesn't work, let me know and I will fix it.

Ken

 

[gumbynotpokey]

I've been seriously considering adding cello to my list of instruments. Tuning in 5ths might help me make the leap, eh?

 

[carlthegroover]

I would deter from using a fifths tuning in a live setting, but I can't see why not trying it for variety. Not that I have tried it yet, though, but I might just out of curiosity.

 

[khutch]

I've been seriously considering adding cello to my list of instruments. Tuning in 5ths might help me make the leap, eh?

It will help you learn where the notes are. If you tune a fretless in fifths it will also help you learn proper intonation, which you will need to learn to play a cello well. There may be some other cello techniques you could use on a fretless bass. On the other hand the scale length will be wrong unless you can find a very short scale bass. And you will learn nothing about bowing. So you won't be able to jump right into playing a cello and perhaps if you go too long without enlisting a cello instructor you might develop some deep seated bad habits that you will need to unlearn to advance very far on a cello.

But I don't play cello so what would I know?!

Ken

 

[khutch]

Say, if anyone wants an online fingering drill to help them learn where the notes are in the CGDA tuning Invalid Link Removed I believe the same site also has a double bass drill which could help someone learn the traditional bass guitar EADG tuning and a violin drill that would help you learn GDAE. These drills use "tape" markers to indicate where the 2nd, 4th, and 5th frets would be. I did not find that helpful when I was starting on the fifths tuning so I put a sheet of clear plastic over the computer screen with physical tape markers on all the frets and dots where my bass fingerboards have them. The cello teacher tape markers just confuse the heck out of me. With that plastic overlay to simulate a BG neck I found the drill to be quite helpful.

Oh, you have to know where the notes are on the bass clef of a musical score to use the drill. So it can teach you both at once if you don't already read music.

Too bad they don't allow you to select any tuning and any reasonable number of strings. Maybe there is such an online drill out there somewhere. If you know of one, post the link here.

Ken

 

[scaai]

Nice to see there are some more CGda players.
I began playing in fifths in 2003, 'cause one of my favourite bass players - Philippe Bussonnet of Magma - tunes his bass this way.
Gauges are .040 - .060 - .090 - .145 (D'Addario Nickels).