Where you write 'mass per unit length' (also called unit weight), you actually mean 'string structure density', the 2 are very different things. But other than that i agree, which is why i wrote 'approximate' everywhere. The rule still works quite well if you don't have the unit weight data for a certain brand of strings and they don't offer tension data or a tension calculator.
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The Fifths Tuning Club
- Thread starter ~M.o.M~
- Start date
Thank you. That factor 1.5 as rule of thumb is very helpful and mostly correct.
The frequency of a vibrating string depends on the velocity of wave propagation (beside other properties). The velocity of wave propagation depends on the material properties of the string -- namely, it's linear mass density = mass/unit length.
'string structure density' sounds better but I would not know how I would get that as a number into a formula for frequency calculation?
I wrote "I argue that with a diameter of 0.08/2 mm or more no e-bass player will be happy?". Out of the context I could not remeber the meaning myself. Sorry, unexplained that is mysterious.
Connect it with the given information: "one calculates for 7,3 kg/16 lbs a Diameter of about 2 mm/ 0.0763"." Related to the usual tension of a bass string of about 40-50 pounds it becomes obvious that "no e-bass player will be happy?". Simply because it is much to sloppy!
The frequency of a vibrating string depends on the velocity of wave propagation (beside other properties). The velocity of wave propagation depends on the material properties of the string -- namely, it's linear mass density = mass/unit length.
'string structure density' sounds better but I would not know how I would get that as a number into a formula for frequency calculation?
I wrote "I argue that with a diameter of 0.08/2 mm or more no e-bass player will be happy?". Out of the context I could not remeber the meaning myself. Sorry, unexplained that is mysterious.
Connect it with the given information: "one calculates for 7,3 kg/16 lbs a Diameter of about 2 mm/ 0.0763"." Related to the usual tension of a bass string of about 40-50 pounds it becomes obvious that "no e-bass player will be happy?". Simply because it is much to sloppy!
When talking about proportionality, the actual values of constants don't need to be known, just knowing they are constant allows us to state 'X is proportional to Y' or 'A : B is the same ratio as C : D'.
What i mean by 'string structure density' is simply the scientific 'density' of the entire string structure: mass / volume.
For 1 inch of string we know the mass from 'unit weight', and the volume is 1 * PI * (gauge / 2) ^ 2.
So:
string structure density = unitweight / (PI * (gauge / 2) ^ 2)
In units 'pounds per cubic inch'.
For a plain steel string this 'string structure density' equals the density of the steel used, so is always precisely constant.
For a wound string this 'string structure density' is the average density of the whole structure taking the air gaps into account. So it does vary a little according to core size, number of wrap layers, gauges of wrap wire. Due to the air gaps it will be lower than the density of the materials used.
///////////////////////
For completeness, the frequency ratio of a fourth interval is very close to 4:3.
The frequency ratio of an octave is of course precisely 2:1.
What i mean by 'string structure density' is simply the scientific 'density' of the entire string structure: mass / volume.
For 1 inch of string we know the mass from 'unit weight', and the volume is 1 * PI * (gauge / 2) ^ 2.
So:
string structure density = unitweight / (PI * (gauge / 2) ^ 2)
In units 'pounds per cubic inch'.
For a plain steel string this 'string structure density' equals the density of the steel used, so is always precisely constant.
For a wound string this 'string structure density' is the average density of the whole structure taking the air gaps into account. So it does vary a little according to core size, number of wrap layers, gauges of wrap wire. Due to the air gaps it will be lower than the density of the materials used.
///////////////////////
For completeness, the frequency ratio of a fourth interval is very close to 4:3.
The frequency ratio of an octave is of course precisely 2:1.
So Kalium recently updated their website. It seems like they no longer have the string calculator available on the new site, or at least I can't find it. I emailed them asking about it a while ago but haven't received any response.
Shanannigan,
The Kalium tension calculator was part of the old shop, which has just been retired. Skip mentioned that a new calculator (with a few minor errors fixed) will be added.
However, there is a good new Kalium tension calculator, seemingly independent or semi-independent, here String Tension Calculator
JES,
I'm interested in what your specific tuning is.
The Kalium tension calculator was part of the old shop, which has just been retired. Skip mentioned that a new calculator (with a few minor errors fixed) will be added.
However, there is a good new Kalium tension calculator, seemingly independent or semi-independent, here String Tension Calculator
JES,
I'm interested in what your specific tuning is.
Thanks. That's the Guitar Craft / Trey Gunn / Warr Guitars / Touch Guitars 8 string tuning, fifths plus a minor third plus a major second.
I have recently been investigating the history of that tuning.
For a single region tap guitar i really like the idea of 7 strings in all-fifths, covering a similar range but going 2 semitones lower, low to high:
Ab Eb Bb F C G D
The Ab0 being 3 semitones below bass guitar B (lowest tappable pitch Bb0).
The D4 is the highest possible pitch on a 34" scale and is 2 semitones below guitar top E.
2 hands placed beside each other on the fretboard covers the required 7 frets. I consider fifths a tuning that has found its ideal place on single region tap guitars.
I have recently been investigating the history of that tuning.
For a single region tap guitar i really like the idea of 7 strings in all-fifths, covering a similar range but going 2 semitones lower, low to high:
Ab Eb Bb F C G D
The Ab0 being 3 semitones below bass guitar B (lowest tappable pitch Bb0).
The D4 is the highest possible pitch on a 34" scale and is 2 semitones below guitar top E.
2 hands placed beside each other on the fretboard covers the required 7 frets. I consider fifths a tuning that has found its ideal place on single region tap guitars.
The narrower intervals up top are nice for chords, and because it’s high up the closer intervals sound good. As if yet I haven’t needed a low Bb but I’m sure if I had it....
I’m all in on fifths tuning. In the past year I’ve obtained the following:
A Supro Huntington that I strung up in contracello CGDA tuning.
An Ibanez acoustic parlor bass that I strung up in actual cello tuning, an octave up from my electric.
A Kala 8 string ukulele that I strung another octave up in viola tuning.
I am tempted to get a set of Red Mitchell strings for my EUB, but I holding off on that cuz my oldest kid just started playing string bass in school, and I might want to give him some lessons or something once he gets into it.
So I got three CGDA instruments in three octaves in three different locations to maximize my limited practice time. I’m hacking through Bach cello suites, picking up radio songs to sing and play, and noodling, and it’s going really well.
A Supro Huntington that I strung up in contracello CGDA tuning.
An Ibanez acoustic parlor bass that I strung up in actual cello tuning, an octave up from my electric.
A Kala 8 string ukulele that I strung another octave up in viola tuning.
I am tempted to get a set of Red Mitchell strings for my EUB, but I holding off on that cuz my oldest kid just started playing string bass in school, and I might want to give him some lessons or something once he gets into it.
So I got three CGDA instruments in three octaves in three different locations to maximize my limited practice time. I’m hacking through Bach cello suites, picking up radio songs to sing and play, and noodling, and it’s going really well.
Hello, all! Been lurking in this thread for years now and decided to finally get in.
I play fifths tuning exclusively, no fourths and probably never will - although regular tuning is lovely! And arguably more versatile, but it's not my voice. Fifths and short-scales is where it's at for me -- not only creatively but I find it clear and comfortable to side-read and to navigate harmonies.
Currently playing two shorties, one in CGDA and one a fifth higher, in GDAE. I really want to play both tunings at the same time so I have a five-string on order. Actually thinking about a good six-string in the future.
Anybody else here tuning fifths on shorties? I have seen a Bass VI mentioned in this thread that I would love to hear. How about 'real' bass 6-string in fifths?
I play fifths tuning exclusively, no fourths and probably never will - although regular tuning is lovely! And arguably more versatile, but it's not my voice. Fifths and short-scales is where it's at for me -- not only creatively but I find it clear and comfortable to side-read and to navigate harmonies.
Currently playing two shorties, one in CGDA and one a fifth higher, in GDAE. I really want to play both tunings at the same time so I have a five-string on order. Actually thinking about a good six-string in the future.
Anybody else here tuning fifths on shorties? I have seen a Bass VI mentioned in this thread that I would love to hear. How about 'real' bass 6-string in fifths?
Yup, I play CGDA on a Supro shorty. I have a guitar scale acoustic bass tuned an octave up like a cello, and a concert ukulele tuned another octave up from that. When I got back into playing after a decade off, none of my instruments felt like “mine” anymore and I experimented with lots of weird stuff until I connected very strongly with four-string instruments in fifths. I also did GDAE on the acoustic, which sounded great, but didn’t do anything for optimizing my limited practice time, so I took it a fourth up.
Before going back to bass I did a lot of GDAEAD (and GDAEBE) on a baritone guitar, and CGDADG (and CGDAEG) on an acoustic guitar. I think those tunings are strong contenders for six-strings, they are weirdly intuitive once you spend some time with them.
Are you doing a Mikro five string, or did you find another good short fiver option?
Sounds worth a try! Although I would definitely need a wider string spacing than a baritone and use CGDAEB. I suppose the B would have to be a plain string at around .018. Not sure how balanced that will sound.
I went for a (pretty straightforward) custom j-style bass. Will be finished early next year, so I'll have to be patient. 30" scale CGDAE!
I am still looking for an Ibanez AGB205, this model is out of production. Curious about the Mikro also, but even these became hard to find in EU.
The Mikro six-string is interesting because it has a 27 inch scale like a baritone, with the wider string spacing, and bass nut and bridge. That probably would have been my next thing to mess around with, if I hadn’t found my current bass.
Isn't the Mikro only available as a fiver? Can't seem to find a six string version anywhere.
Now that I’m looking, I think you’re right. I know I played a short six when I was bass shopping about a year ago, and I had it in my head that it was a Mikro. But now you got me trying to look it up, I don’t know what it was, sorry.
I do it with upright. I have also done it with bass. My old fretless was tuned that way but my son restrung it to 4ths
