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The Fifths Tuning Club
- Thread starter ~M.o.M~
- Start date
@masterzaffro Allfifthstuning made a very comprehensive scale/chord/arpeggio book for fifths tuning. Download the MainFile.pdf file in that link. He posted some of his videos on page 19 of this thread.
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@Shanannigan,
I had forgotten about Allfifthstuning's scale book! Yep, AFT did some terrific work in that e-book!
John
I had forgotten about Allfifthstuning's scale book! Yep, AFT did some terrific work in that e-book!
John
So a lot of this thread has become about strings - and that's cool. For those that might be working out fingerings to play bass - the below may help players actually still play songs while learning 5ths fingerings.
So, these are just some reminder notes that I used when I was learning to walk in Jazz standards from chord charts. While I used this mainly for 5ths tuning, it works for 4ths too. Using the PDF from @Allfifthstuning (Stellar work BTW too) and the below notes, quite a bit of bass can be learned for 5ths!
Basic Chords
Major Triad = R-3-5
Minor Triad = R-b3-5
Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5
7th Chords
Maj7 = R-3-5-7
Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7
Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7
1/2 diminished = R-b3-b5-b7
Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7
Generic Notes - for your bass line
The root, five and eight are generic (R-5-8-5) and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
The 3 is generic to all major chords. So R-3-5-3 will fit under any major chord.
The b3 is generic to all minor chords. And R-b3-5-8 will fit under any minor chord. Why the 8? Well the 8 is just another root in the next octave.
The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords. Yep, R-3-5-7 fits nicely.
The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords. G7 = R-3-5-b7 or Gm7 = R-b3-5-b7.
The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s. Love the sound of R-3-5-6 with a major chord.
The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.
In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
Remember, roots, fifths, root octaves and the correct 3 & 7 will play a lot of bass.
Finally, (not to turn this conversation into an "App" conversation either) if you are learning bass lines from recorded music, may I suggest the app "Learn That Song" (it's on iOS, not sure of Android) which has user defined section loop, song speed change, with rewind/fast forward functions. For me it helped a ton in transcribing solos, figuring out key centers and heck, even the key of a song.
Between the above LTS app and a metronome app, and using the headphone jack out to my amp's AUX input, my practice tools are pretty set - and I can get back to playing music with others.
Of course, YMMV.
John
So, these are just some reminder notes that I used when I was learning to walk in Jazz standards from chord charts. While I used this mainly for 5ths tuning, it works for 4ths too. Using the PDF from @Allfifthstuning (Stellar work BTW too) and the below notes, quite a bit of bass can be learned for 5ths!
Basic Chords
Major Triad = R-3-5
Minor Triad = R-b3-5
Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5
7th Chords
Maj7 = R-3-5-7
Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7
Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7
1/2 diminished = R-b3-b5-b7
Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7
Generic Notes - for your bass line
The root, five and eight are generic (R-5-8-5) and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
The 3 is generic to all major chords. So R-3-5-3 will fit under any major chord.
The b3 is generic to all minor chords. And R-b3-5-8 will fit under any minor chord. Why the 8? Well the 8 is just another root in the next octave.
The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords. Yep, R-3-5-7 fits nicely.
The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords. G7 = R-3-5-b7 or Gm7 = R-b3-5-b7.
The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s. Love the sound of R-3-5-6 with a major chord.
The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.
In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
Remember, roots, fifths, root octaves and the correct 3 & 7 will play a lot of bass.
Finally, (not to turn this conversation into an "App" conversation either) if you are learning bass lines from recorded music, may I suggest the app "Learn That Song" (it's on iOS, not sure of Android) which has user defined section loop, song speed change, with rewind/fast forward functions. For me it helped a ton in transcribing solos, figuring out key centers and heck, even the key of a song.
Between the above LTS app and a metronome app, and using the headphone jack out to my amp's AUX input, my practice tools are pretty set - and I can get back to playing music with others.
Of course, YMMV.
John
Not me although I do have a bass tuned an octave up from there. But that won't help you....
Something cool I just realized about my fifths tuned 5 string jazz bass, the lowest and the highest notes are C.
Does anyone out there have any experience using TI Acousticore strings in 5ths tuning? This would be a 5 string set as they don't make a specific 5ths tuning set.
From what i've read, the problem string is usually the floppy low B, but tuning it up to C may help a bit - well that and a lighter G for tuning to A. Unsure about the D/A/E strings though. When I look at the tension in pounds from TI - they're really light tension!
The strings will be installed on a Breedlove fretless that originally comes with DA Chromes. So it's unlikely that a string anything close to Chromes will be an issue, but this bass is for my office where more acoustic output will be an issue - so I'm looking for lower tension strings to reduce the volume a bit but maintain the feel - if that makes any sense.
Worst case I can always go with the LaBella Golds or 760-FXB strings - or my old standby TI Jazz Flats.
Thanks for the help.
John
From what i've read, the problem string is usually the floppy low B, but tuning it up to C may help a bit - well that and a lighter G for tuning to A. Unsure about the D/A/E strings though. When I look at the tension in pounds from TI - they're really light tension!
The strings will be installed on a Breedlove fretless that originally comes with DA Chromes. So it's unlikely that a string anything close to Chromes will be an issue, but this bass is for my office where more acoustic output will be an issue - so I'm looking for lower tension strings to reduce the volume a bit but maintain the feel - if that makes any sense.
Worst case I can always go with the LaBella Golds or 760-FXB strings - or my old standby TI Jazz Flats.
Thanks for the help.
John
I decided to try a set of Chromes on my standard tuning jazz bass. Loved it and I think I'm going to get a custom set of Chromes (.132 .090 .060 .040) for my 5ths P-Bass. Wish me luck.
Here's a treat for ya: an amazing (and very distorted) bass solo by Philippe Bussonnet, on a MIJ Jazz Bass tuned in fifths. He's using nickel D'Addarios (.135 .090 .060 .040) and, as you can see and hear from this piece's chord and scale changes, he's pretty much mastered navigating through the fretboard in the CGDA tuning.
Here's a treat for ya: an amazing (and very distorted) bass solo by Philippe Bussonnet, on a MIJ Jazz Bass tuned in fifths. He's using nickel D'Addarios (.135 .090 .060 .040) and, as you can see and hear from this piece's chord and scale changes, he's pretty much mastered navigating through the fretboard in the CGDA tuning.
Thanks for sharing, I've never heard of him before. He's definitely fluent in 5ths tuning. I'm trying to break down the run he does here.
This is exactly the type of stuff I need when I'm feeling frustrated with my progress and losing motivation to keep going.
This is exactly the type of stuff I need when I'm feeling frustrated with my progress and losing motivation to keep going.
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For you flats in fifth's users out there with an interest of fifths tuning on an acoustic bass guitar...
I recently picked up a Breedlove Jumbo fretless and it came strung with Chromes. Removed the E, added a low B tuned to C, raised/lowered to get it into fifths tuning and it sounded darn nice! Played it for a couple of weeks that way, but the .045 G tuned to A is a bit tight - IMHO, so is the D but I don't seem to have minded it much before on my EBGs.
However..much as the string changer that I am - and with the many strings that I have in gallon freezer bags - a change was in order. I also noticed that the Chromes on the Fretless (C&G strings) had a really subtle but very nice grooowwwllll element to them - but the D&A(G) strings just didn't sound great to my ear and were a bit tight, so I added a D&A(G) from a set of GHS Precision Flats. The GHSPF strings lowered the tension on the D&A(G) a bit too and really opened up the sound/tone in the bass.
FWIW, know that I also tried the C(B) & G(A) strings and while they were much softer in feel, the sound just wasn't good as the Chromes - nor were they as loud. (So) Back to the Chromes on the C&G I went.
On my own upright I run Spirocores on the C&G and Dominants on the D&A. Spank me silly, but the Chromes remind me of the Spirocores and the GHSPF strings remind me of my Dominants. Pretty good pairing I say.
Can't really say how'd they sound on an electric bass guitar, but I can get pretty uprighty sounding on the Breedlove with those strings.
Enjoy!
John
I recently picked up a Breedlove Jumbo fretless and it came strung with Chromes. Removed the E, added a low B tuned to C, raised/lowered to get it into fifths tuning and it sounded darn nice! Played it for a couple of weeks that way, but the .045 G tuned to A is a bit tight - IMHO, so is the D but I don't seem to have minded it much before on my EBGs.
However..much as the string changer that I am - and with the many strings that I have in gallon freezer bags - a change was in order. I also noticed that the Chromes on the Fretless (C&G strings) had a really subtle but very nice grooowwwllll element to them - but the D&A(G) strings just didn't sound great to my ear and were a bit tight, so I added a D&A(G) from a set of GHS Precision Flats. The GHSPF strings lowered the tension on the D&A(G) a bit too and really opened up the sound/tone in the bass.
FWIW, know that I also tried the C(B) & G(A) strings and while they were much softer in feel, the sound just wasn't good as the Chromes - nor were they as loud. (So) Back to the Chromes on the C&G I went.
On my own upright I run Spirocores on the C&G and Dominants on the D&A. Spank me silly, but the Chromes remind me of the Spirocores and the GHSPF strings remind me of my Dominants. Pretty good pairing I say.
Can't really say how'd they sound on an electric bass guitar, but I can get pretty uprighty sounding on the Breedlove with those strings.
Enjoy!
John
On my acoustic, I use a mix of nylon strings. I find steel strings to be too harsh on acoustic, nylons have a great balance between warmth and definition. For the low C, I use a TI Acousticore B. For the G D and A strings I use La Bella lute strings, gauges .064 .048 .034, which I order here Invalid Link Removed .
Like my other basses, my acoustic is a 6 string. As if that wasn't already niche enough, for the two highest strings I took a tip from one of @Allfifthstuning videos and use fluorocarbon fishing line, which is a similar material used to make plain classical guitar strings.
Like my other basses, my acoustic is a 6 string. As if that wasn't already niche enough, for the two highest strings I took a tip from one of @Allfifthstuning videos and use fluorocarbon fishing line, which is a similar material used to make plain classical guitar strings.
That’d be a great selection for a fretted acoustic. Hadn’t really thought of using lute strings! Any idea how long the strings are and/or will they work on a 34” scale acoustic? I looked for the details and even added them to my cart to try, but since I don’t play lute, I thought I’d check in before spending the ~$9 before shipping.
FWIW, I’ll keep the flats on my fretless though... Right now I’m loving the upper register decay on the high strings and he Spirocore growl on the two low strings.
While I’m traveling, it makes me miss my upright even more.
John
@Will White,
It really depends on what you are after. Low F under the low C will be a hefty string on a 30” scale bass with decent tension. Heck, even a tight low F under the low B string in fourths (at least when I tried it out) was HUGE!
Not to discourage you in the least, but when I looked at expanding the range of a bass in fifths, I settled on a 5’er with a high E and on a 34” scale. Seemed to be the best tone to me, though I even tried 5ths on a 7 string and it seemed pointless on bass to me though. FWIW, @khutch has a 5 and an even shorter scale 6 (if memory serves), so he can likely help here too.
You might look up the tension calculator in the FAQ section of Kalium Strings. Just set your scale length to 30” and it’ll give you their size/tension table. Rule of thumb is largest string divided by 1.5 (i.e. .090 / 1.5 = .060. .090 would be for the G string, .060 would be for the D string, next is .040, .026, .017, .011, etc.
I’ve used down to a .017 through a .011 and I kept breaking them. YMMV with a 30” though.
That help?
John
It really depends on what you are after. Low F under the low C will be a hefty string on a 30” scale bass with decent tension. Heck, even a tight low F under the low B string in fourths (at least when I tried it out) was HUGE!
Not to discourage you in the least, but when I looked at expanding the range of a bass in fifths, I settled on a 5’er with a high E and on a 34” scale. Seemed to be the best tone to me, though I even tried 5ths on a 7 string and it seemed pointless on bass to me though. FWIW, @khutch has a 5 and an even shorter scale 6 (if memory serves), so he can likely help here too.
You might look up the tension calculator in the FAQ section of Kalium Strings. Just set your scale length to 30” and it’ll give you their size/tension table. Rule of thumb is largest string divided by 1.5 (i.e. .090 / 1.5 = .060. .090 would be for the G string, .060 would be for the D string, next is .040, .026, .017, .011, etc.
I’ve used down to a .017 through a .011 and I kept breaking them. YMMV with a 30” though.
That help?
John
It's the F a half step above E standard, although I'm building a 2 string bass for G0 A1, 39" or 40" scale, .150 and .060 Kallium Hybrids.
I'm mainly wondering about the 2 or 3 high strings if I'm thinking right they're going to be in the same range as a Guitar, would it be better as a 28" scale?
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That’d be a great selection for a fretted acoustic. Hadn’t really thought of using lute strings! Any idea how long the strings are and/or will they work on a 34” scale acoustic? I looked for the details and even added them to my cart to try, but since I don’t play lute, I thought I’d check in before spending the ~$9 before shipping.
FWIW, I’ll keep the flats on my fretless though... Right now I’m loving the upper register decay on the high strings and he Spirocore growl on the two low strings.
While I’m traveling, it makes me miss my upright even more.
John
My bass is 34" and they fit fine. I searched around for a while for nylon strings that would fit a bass, and that were available in varying gauges for 5ths. So far those are the only option I've been able to find. The only string I had issues with was their .080 for the C, which is why I use a TI Acousticore B for it now. The .080 was just a bit too loose, if they made a .090 it would probably be just right.
The other thing about them is that they don't have ball ends or anything. For the thinner ones I run them through small beads and knot them a few times, for the bigger ones I just create a knot at the end. You just need to be careful when tightening the knots because the nylon can unwind if you pull too hard.
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