The Fifths Tuning Club

[byacey]

When I started playing bass, I had already been playing violin for some time and thought tuning the bass in 5ths would make for an easy transition to bass guitar. The idea was good, but I found the practicality not so much due to the amount of shifting around up and down the fingerboard required to play common bass runs. Once I tried that I resigned to learning the bass "properly" in 4ths. That was 34 years ago, but after reading this thread, I may have to give it another try and see where it goes.

 

[Allfifthstuning]

Hey Allfifthstuning, glad to see you here. Your videos and chord/scale book helped me a lot during my transition from fourths to fifths tuning.

Great to hear! Making the book was my help to learn my way around the neck. As for making new videos, unfortunately life is getting a bit in the way.

 

[ixlramp]

Again - IMHO the set feels better balanced in 5ths than in 4ths - and they are much more tonally balanced with the .022" plain string.

That's fine. What i disagreed with was your post stating "tension is now very even ...". 'feel' is very different from 'tension'. 'tension' is a scientific term and always means scientific pull force measured in pound-force (lb or lbf). Unfortunately on guitar forums 'tension', 'feel' and 'stiffness' are all confused with each other and used for each other.

Can someone recommend a readily available and inexpensive set of strings for tuning in fifths from bottom C?

To start, I’d use a 5 string set & toss the E string. That usually works in the beginning. Of course this is all IMHO and YMMV.

Just about any set of 5 string med, med-light or light flats will work. You may need to experiment to find the tone that you like though - again just about any 5 string set will “work”.

Sorry but a 5 string set without the E is so uneven in tension this is simply bad advice and likely to put someone off fifths tuning, it's already hard enough to get used to without horrible tensions. I can't let this bad advice go unchallenged. I think jharms is unusual in finding that acceptable in feel.
The cost of the wasted E will cover the extra cost of using singles, so there's no point. It also wastes precious resources.

There are no available fifths sets anywhere, you need to build a set from singles by choosing each gauge to get the per-string tensions you like. For this reason it is usually necessary to buy singles by mail order, only the largest guitar shops will have bass singles and these are often old and corroded.

There are some string companies who only sell by mail order, have no pre-packaged sets and therefore custom sets are no more expensive. This will be the lowest cost way.

 

[ixlramp]

For CGDA octave below cello here is the quick and easy gauge advice:

C is a semitone above standard B. You could tune a B up 1 semitone, Bs are usually low tension so this works well. Or to keep tension unchanged subtract .005 from your preferred B gauge.
G is a tone below standard A so add .010 to your preferred A gauge.
D is unchanged.
A is a tone above standard G so subtract .005 from your preferred G gauge.

 

[kirkdickinson]

I got my strings from Kalium.

I used their tension chart. Shooting for 37 lbs, I ordered a set:

C .124 36.9 lbs
G .082 37.2 lbs
D .055 37.7 lbs
A .035 36.1 lbs

For a close to 40 lb tension, I could have ordered:
C .130 40.4 lbs
G .086 40.7 lbs
D .057 40.4 lbs
A .037 40 lbs

If you are using roundwounds, build a set from any manufacturer by getting as close as possible to these gauges.

 

[masterzaffro]

Any recommendations on strings for my 5 string Jazz Bass? I'd like to tune it to CGDAE. Im currently using Curt Mangan's 5 String FusionMatched Nickelwound Set 40-125. I like them a lot. I know it's gonna be completely different but I figured it might help in showing you my taste. I tried reading the the document in the beginning and it completely overwhelmed and confused me. I'm new on bass and play kind of experimentally so I figure the transition to fifths tuning might be easier for me than some other people and I'm really excited to have the huge range. Especially with my Bass Whammy and other weird pedals. Spacey noise freakout here I come!

 

[vox.jubilante]

Any recommendations on strings for my 5 string Jazz Bass? I'd like to tune it to CGDAE. Im currently using Curt Mangan's 5 String FusionMatched Nickelwound Set 40-125. I like them a lot. I know it's gonna be completely different but I figured it might help in showing you my taste. I tried reading the the document in the beginning and it completely overwhelmed and confused me. I'm new on bass and play kind of experimentally so I figure the transition to fifths tuning might be easier for me than some other people and I'm really excited to have the huge range. Especially with my Bass Whammy and other weird pedals. Spacey noise freakout here I come!

I'm not really big into experimenting with strings, and I have no experience with the Curt Mangans, but I'd think that the Kaliums would be worth a try when it comes to nickel roundwounds. I'm using a set of Kalium bass hybrids on my Ric and a custom set of Rotosounds on my jazz bass.

I've used Rotosound RS66s for most of the time I've been playing, first the standard set and then the Billy Sheehan set, so when I first decided to experiment with CGDA 5ths tuning, I went with a set of Rotosound RS66 singles which were available as singles in a pretty wide range of gauges from online stores.

Those are: .130/.85/.55/.35

Overall, I like that set (they're still on there - not playing as much as I'd like so don't really feel the need to change them that much for practicing). The 'D' and 'A' strings could probably have a bit more meat on them, but overall this works well and is even in tension. That bass (late 90s AVRI '62 jazz bass) has a fairly slender, temperamental neck - the standard RS66 sets would generally produce more bow in the neck over time. With those gauges in 5ths it's actually been quite stable - a little wiggle with the weather over time, but barely noticeable.

When I decided to move a '78 Ric 4001 I acquired to 5ths, I decided to give the Kaliums a try and went with the gauges @kirkdickinson mentioned above: .130/.86/.57/.37

This is perhaps better in terms of balance and tension, but when I made the change with this bass I had it set up and plek'd at Mike Lull's and comparing my amateur work on my other bass is not really a fair comparison - he made that bass play like a dream all around.

This set of gauges works great and have also proven to be very stable when it comes to the neck. In terms of sound, I think I may be slightly more partial to the Rotosounds which is odd, since they're the only stainless steel rounds I've tried that really do it for me - they just have a particular sound that I seem to like.

I am interested in trying flatwounds on the Ric, but there seem to be far fewer gauges with which to mix and match there, so I've been slow to get that going.

 

[masterzaffro]

I've used Rotosound RS66s for most of the time I've been playing, first the standard set and then the Billy Sheehan set, so when I first decided to experiment with CGDA 5ths tuning, I went with a set of Rotosound RS66 singles which were available as singles in a pretty wide range of gauges from online stores.

Those are: .130/.85/.55/.35

When I decided to move a '78 Ric 4001 I acquired to 5ths, I decided to give the Kaliums a try and went with the gauges @kirkdickinson mentioned above: .130/.86/.57/.37

This is perhaps better in terms of balance and tension, but when I made the change with this bass I had it set up and plek'd at Mike Lull's and comparing my amateur work on my other bass is not really a fair comparison - he made that bass play like a dream all around.@kirkdickinson mentioned above: .130/.86/.57/.37

Right now my low B on my 5 string bass is a 125. I was thinking about bringing that to a 120 since I'm tuning up but both you're examples use a 130 for the lowest string. I'd like for my low C to feel a little tighter and less clunky than the 125 string felt as a low B. Would 120 be a problem?

My rough estimate for my 5 string CGDAE string sizes are 120-85-60-35-20. Do these sizes make sense? Would the tension be ok?

 

[kirkdickinson]

Right now my low B on my 5 string bass is a 125. I was thinking about bringing that to a 120 since I'm tuning up but both you're examples use a 130 for the lowest string. I'd like for my low C to feel a little tighter and less clunky than the 125 string felt as a low B. Would 120 be a problem?

My rough estimate for my 5 string CGDAE string sizes are 120-85-60-35-20. Do these sizes make sense? Would the tension be ok?

Check out the tension calculator on Kallium. Assuming 34" scale....

Shooting for 37 lb tension
C .124 36.9 lbs
G .082 37.2 lbs
D .055 37.7 lbs
A .035 36.06 lbs
E .023 37.05 lbs

Shooting for 40 lb tension
C .130 40.37 lbs
G .086 40.7 lbs
D .057 40.4 lbs
A .037 40 lbs
E .024 40.62 lbs

I would assume that most similar round-wound strings would have similar tensions. Not everybody likes even tension across the board. Some like ascending or descending tensions. Only you can determine your tastes. I kinda like similar tensions.

On the Kalium chart there isn't a 120 string, but the 118 has a 33.48 lb tension tuned to C. Even half way between the .124 and the .118 would put you at 35lbs. I would think that would be pretty floppy. Not sure how linear those calculations are??

 

[masterzaffro]

Check out the tension calculator on Kallium. Assuming 34" scale....

Shooting for 37 lb tension
C .124 36.9 lbs
G .082 37.2 lbs
D .055 37.7 lbs
A .035 36.06 lbs
E .023 37.05 lbs

Shooting for 40 lb tension
C .130 40.37 lbs
G .086 40.7 lbs
D .057 40.4 lbs
A .037 40 lbs
E .024 40.62 lbs

I would assume that most similar round-wound strings would have similar tensions. Not everybody likes even tension across the board. Some like ascending or descending tensions. Only you can determine your tastes. I kinda like similar tensions.

On the Kalium chart there isn't a 120 string, but the 118 has a 33.48 lb tension tuned to C. Even half way between the .124 and the .118 would put you at 35lbs. I would think that would be pretty floppy. Not sure how linear those calculations are??

That's very helpful. After figuring out the calculator I think I would be okay with this set up

C - .130 40.5 lbs
G - .085 39.5 lbs
D - .055 37.5 lbs
A - .035 36 lbs
E - .023 37 lbs

The main reason for this is because it doesn't look like Curt Mangan makes sizes in between multiples of 5. So unfortunately I probably have to get the high E string somewhere else. But this is a great start. Thanks for your help!

 

[masterzaffro]

My friends dad refurbishes guitars and I was thinking about seeing if he would be into working with me to mod my Jazz Bass 5 String to be tuned to fifths. I have the string sizes already picked out and I know we'd have to make a new custom nut. What else do we need to do, any tips and is their any literature to show what we need to do?

 

[Shanannigan]

Try strings out with the nut as it is first, I doubt you would need to adjust it. I have as light as a .012p on one of my 6 strings, and as heavy as a .182 on another and haven't had to do anything to the nuts.

Other than that it's just about adjusting to the new tuning. It can be a good resource to study cello players, as well as 5ths upright bassists like Red Mitchell and Joel Quarrington. For electric bass Nikko Whitworth is a solid player and has a lot of videos on youtube.

One big tip for playing, open strings are your best friend in 5ths tuning.

 

[jharms80439]

Try strings out with the nut as it is first, I doubt you would need to adjust it.

^^ This!

The 5ths strings should all be a bit smaller than your standard 4ths 5-string set and should fit fine for a temporary solution. It'll play better (perhaps less rattles, better tone/sustain, etc) with a properly fitted nut - but for a "try before you commit too much" plan, @Shanannigan has it right.

John

 

[masterzaffro]

That's great information. Do I have to mess with the truss rod or should I be pretty much good to go with the new tuning as long as I have the right strings? And if I find that I really want to get a new nut because of too much rattle or sustain problems, can I reuse the strings I bought or do I have to get a new set?

 

[jharms80439]

Truss rod adjustment depend on the tension of the current strings versus the tension of the strings you buy. If you are able to determine the tension of the strings you currently have, you could match a similar tension set from Kalium Strings (in a proper 5ths set diameter) to not require much of a truss rod adjustment. If not, stick to some of the established 5ths sets listed in this thread and you "should" be fine. (And) Yes, you can re-use the strings you buy with the new nut.

I doubt that you will get "too much" rattle too. If your bass has a "zero fret" you likely won't get any.

Not to turn this into a DIY thread, but you may want to look up using super glue and baking soda to fill the slots just a bit and nut files to match the slot with your strings. Search around and you'll find info on nut repairs. FWIW, it is pretty easy to do with the right tools.

John

 

[jdaunt]

I’m in, kind of!
Been messing around with different tuning ideas lately and picked up an Ibanez TMB100 a couple weeks ago to fool with instead of screwing up my American Standard Fenders. Had planned to do BEAD tuning, but then thought, I wonder if i could find a tuning with the range of a 5 string, but using just 4. So i got a set of 5 string Chromes and tuned the Talman B Gb Db Ab. So it’s in 5ths, but a semi-tone lower than i’m reading all of the people on this forum are doing. I attribute that to you all coming from a cello approach whereas i looked at it from a 5 string bass approach. I see how the open strings in that tuning are much more musically useful, but i don’t use open strings often (although maybe i should and would with that tuning) and i think the tension issues from the 5 string set i used aren’t as bad in my tuning. The B is obviously the B string, i tuned the E string up to Gb, D down to Bb and the G up to Ab. Only had a couple days to mess with it so far, but i love the extended range and the chord tone patterns seem to make sense so far.

 

[jharms80439]

@jdaunt,

Well, that's a curious twist on 5ths tuning! Congrats!

For me, I do like having the standard "D" as a reference and don't really go below a low C (Db a bunch though) in order to warrant the lower tuning - but each to his own!

I too love the extended range (5 in a 4 package) which is why I changed to 5ths. I was in BEAD for a while, but missed the G string too much.

With 5ths on a 4, and because I too don't use a bunch of open strings either, I thought about buying a Kubicki X-Factor bass with the E string de-tuner. 32" scale, accessible low C, but tuned (C) at the de-tuner, but otherwise D-A-E-B on the open strings. Not a fan of the body shape, otherwise I would...

Anyway, good luck with your 5ths journey - and try Kalium for strings!

John

 

[khutch]

I've never played cello but I never played a conventional five string enough to become attached to a B string either. The cello tuning is low enough for me most of the time and it required me to learn only one new string. The other three were familiar they are just inverted from their normal order! Personally, I have a couple of basses with Hipshot "D" tuners on the C string so I can go down to a B when I want to and probably to an A if that were ever necessary. But any tuning that works for you is great by me, even, how conventional, fourths!

 

[Shanannigan]

I had my basses tuned Bb F C G D A for a while, because I wanted unison cello tuning so that I could be able to replicate the cello suites. Having played 6 string for a long time I also didn't want to lose my low B. However I've since switched to C G D A E B for practical reasons.

C G D A are actually the four most commonly used keys in music, so I concluded that it just made more sense to have those available as my lower strings because it makes a lot of music more practical to play than the way I had it tuned originally. Plus I have a D-Tuner on my electric, so I can still access the low Bb/B when needed.

As for the cello suites, I can put a capo on the 5th fret and have unison cello tuning, plus much closer to cello scale length.

 

[Shanannigan]

Has anybody tried out Stringjoy strings?

They do custom gauges like Kalium. I've had issues with Kalium recently so I've been shopping for alternatives, and decided to give Stringjoy a try.