The Fifths Tuning Club

[Michael Eisenman]

I don’t have the time to learn fifths tuning, so I just posted my barely used set of D'Addario Chromes in the Classifieds. Complete details are in the ad:
For Sale - Fifths D'Addario Chromes set

Update: The strings have been sold.

 

[jharms80439]

Michael,

Bummer that you weren’t able to give 5ths tuning a go. You’re Chromes selection is a good one too.

Based on my recent Chromes install, I am impressed with the feel and tone! If I hadn’t just installed an identical set they’d already be be on they’re way to Colorado.

GLWTS!

John

 

[jharms80439]

The 5ths string flatwound saga continues...

Usually not a Thomastik Infeld Jazz Flats user in 5ths tuning as the tension can get a bit flabby, but I recently bought a 5 string set to try on a P/J fretless and I thought I’d give it another go.

In 5ths with a 5 string set I usually end up tossing the E string. This time I didn’t. With TI’s on 4ths, low tension is sort of the rule. Detuning the A string to G, at least for me, usually results in a floppy mess.

Wasn’t a fan of the TI’s on the fretless, so on a whim I strung them up on my 5 string Roscoe Beck, with a .022 plain high E string. This time I also used the low E string from the 5 string set as the low G. Wow! What a difference on another bass. Tension is now very even across the strings and all the strings have great tonal balance too.

On the fretless, the TI’s were all lows and low mid mud (this bass really takes to Chromes with better tone so I should have known better). The 5 previously had a LaBella/Chromes mix, but with the LaBella/Chromes, it was all upper mids and no lows. With the TI’s on the RB5, the bass & mids are back with authority.

For now I’m back to a mix of LaBella 760FX-B’s & Chromes on the fretless but will likely go back to a full set of Chromes. The TI’s are staying on the 5 though.

Play on,

John

 

[MarkA]

I've never used these people, but I did inquire with them a few years ago and, back then, they said that they could make custom flatwound strings to any of a variety of specifications:

octave4plus.com

They got back to me quickly with a detailed reply.

The 5ths string flatwound saga continues...

Usually not a Thomastik Infeld Jazz Flats user in 5ths tuning as the tension can get a bit flabby, but I recently bought a 5 string set to try on a P/J fretless and I thought I’d give it another go.

In 5ths with a 5 string set I usually end up tossing the E string. This time I didn’t. With TI’s on 4ths, low tension is sort of the rule. Detuning the A string to G, at least for me, usually results in a floppy mess.

Wasn’t a fan of the TI’s on the fretless, so on a whim I strung them up on my 5 string Roscoe Beck, with a .022 plain high E string. This time I also used the low E string from the 5 string set as the low G. Wow! What a difference on another bass. Tension is now very even across the strings and all the strings have great tonal balance too.

On the fretless, the TI’s were all lows and low mid mud (this bass really takes to Chromes with better tone so I should have known better). The 5 previously had a LaBella/Chromes mix, but with the LaBella/Chromes, it was all upper mids and no lows. With the TI’s on the RB5, the bass & mids are back with authority.

For now I’m back to a mix of LaBella 760FX-B’s & Chromes on the fretless but will likely go back to a full set of Chromes. The TI’s are staying on the 5 though.

Play on,

John

 

[ixlramp]

Usually not a Thomastik Infeld Jazz Flats user in 5ths tuning as the tension can get a bit flabby, but I recently bought a 5 string set [...]
Tension is now very even across the strings

Initial set 136 100 70 56 43? Using 136 100 56 43 22p? If so, that is certainly not a very even tension in fifths, or even a smoothly continuous curve, tension goes up and down per-string.

The only fifths sets worth using are built from singles using tension data or an understanding of tension.
All you need to know to design a set is the rule derived from physics:
2 strings a fifth apart will have equal tension when their gauges are in ratio 3:2.

However it's also a good idea to reduce the tension on wound strings thinner than .025 due to their thin cores. So, let tension fall-off for the highest strings if they get that thin.
Thinner strings also 'feel' tighter due to their thinness so that is another good reason to let tension fall-off from around .025 and thinner.

Wow! What a difference on another bass

Using a different bass doesn't change the relative tensions of a string set.

For a high E in a roundwound fifths set you can use a roundwound .020 or .022 made for the high F in a 7 string set, to avoid the tonal change due to a plain steel string. Conklin Guitars sell them as steel roundwounds from their site.
You could also try guitar strings, some are long enough to reach the tuner post closest to the nut, just thread a detached bass ball-end onto one to make the ball-end the right size. However guitar strings of around .022 have thin cores that might not take the tension.

 

[jharms80439]

I've never used these people, but I did inquire with them a few years ago and, back then, they said that they could make custom flatwound strings to any of a variety of specifications:

octave4plus.com

They got back to me quickly with a detailed reply.

Had a few conversations with octave4plus ~6-9 months ago. They are a definite option for custom made flatwound strings - though I have yet to purchase a set from them. In the conversations (emails only) they mentioned that they have many of the characteristics of Chromes because of the stainless wrap. If I ever get closer to figuring out what I actually like long term, I will likely order a set!

John

 

[ixlramp]

Any advice you can give me regarding what type of bass guitar to buy and string selection would be appreciated. I was looking at short scale basses, but it looks like the string selection for those guitars is limited.

Exactly, and when tuning in fifths you need as much string choice as you can get, so it's certainly best to use a 34/35" scale.
Short scale basses will also make the tone of the large-gauge low C worse.

If you choose a headless bass make sure to buy a string adaptor for it that allows you to use single-ball-end strings.
I'm not sure that the hardware of a headless 4 string, or a 4 string adaptor, will cope with the large gauge of the low C. So if you get a headless a 5 string is a better idea.

 

[jharms80439]

ixlramp,

I should have clarified YMMV, IMHO, etc. (And) Yes, I do know how to calculate strings 3:2 and have done that extensively for rounds. Flats for me have been a somewhat different natured beast - again YMMV/IMHO.

That said - (AND) I'm really not being snarky here - I've tried my best at 3:2 with flats and it doesn't always work out (perhaps with octave4bass strings it actually would).

I come from an upright bass with strings that have just a "hair" more tension and a much longer scale. I've mixed and matched flatwound sets extensively.

Just one question for you - have you actually played the TI set mentioned above and tuned in both 4ths and 5ths? FWIW, I have. Again - IMHO the set feels better balanced in 5ths than in 4ths - and they are much more tonally balanced with the .022" plain string. (Know that I did try other strings both heavier and lighter in gauge - and settled on the .022" string.)

My purpose in posting was to open other people's possibilities for getting a 5ths set of flatwound strings. Since I've tried balanced tension, descending tension and ascending tension in rounds - and I'm only reporting what "I" found when using these... Note that it is typical in flats to have descending tension - which is the nature of the beast when you raise the G to A and lower the A to G with commercially available strings.

FOR ME, the set sounded poor on my fretless and sounds great on my fretted 5 with a plain .022 high e. Your Milage May Vary...

John

 

[jharms80439]

ixlramp.

Oh and one more - if you are ever in Colorado, you're welcome to come on by for a 5ths tuning string fest!

I likely have 50+ sets of string that I've tried over the years - flats, rounds, nylon coated, stainless, nickel (multiples of each in different gauges if they were available) - and I even have ~10 sets of upright strings including a 5ths gut set.

Mi casa es tu casa amigo.

Bring your basses or try them on mine. We'll learn together!

John

 

[w3stoner]

Have had a great time reading through this thread tonight and thought I’d join in. I’m a cello player as well, but actually tune by basses A\CGDG (74 Jazz with a hip shot on the C; fretted; don’t remember what strings) and CGDG (84 Rick 4002 Fretless, TI Jazz flats).

I’ve been playing that tuning since the late 80s when I was a cash poor high school student and I couldn’t find a 5 string I liked if I could have afforded it.

Ive got a baritone uke that I converted to a 5 string to have something to strum on and try out a eCGDG tuning on. So I could have that open E if I needed it... That morphed to an fCGDA which I’m really digging. Nice chording opportunities. I’m starting to think I might look for a 5 string bass to try that tuning on.

At any rate I look forward to more posts here
Bill

 

[jharms80439]

Welcome Bill!

John

 

[Newbilong]

This is an inspirational thread. I used to play violin, viola and classical guitar for many years, but now i only really play bass, i miss the repertoire and exercises. If i hadn't just bought a second fretted bass to match my fretless wunkay, i would be restringing it in fifths. Now i will have to find a second fretless to give this a go.

Sorry i haven't read through the whole thread. Can someone recommend a readily available and inexpensive set of strings for tuning in fifths from bottom C?

 

[jharms80439]

Welcome!

To start, I’d use a 5 string set & toss the E string. That usually works in the beginning. Of course this is all IMHO and YMMV.

If you want to jump in the deep end of the pool, for rounds you might try Kalium Strings singles at kaliummusic.com. Check the FAQ there for a string tension calculator/chart. Both hybrids and stainless strings are terrific, though IMHO the hybrids are a bit brighter than the stainless strings which is a bit odd for me.

For flats, custom gauge flatwounds may be ordered from www.octave4plus.com. Gary is awesome to work with - strings are great too.

Welcome to the journey!

John

 

[Newbilong]

many thanks - i'll restring my L-1000 and if that works for me i'll have to start looking for another fretless.
a

 

[vox.jubilante]

Hello -

I’ve been experimenting with fifths for a little while in the typical c-g-d-a, sub-cello tuning (coming from using the guitar craft tuning on guitar for a bit), first by switching over my ‘62 avri jazz bass with a custom set from Rotosound RS66 singles, then having a ‘78 Rickenbacker 4001 plek’d and setup in that tuning by Mike Lull with a set I ordered from Kalium.

I did ok with the jazz bass myself. Volume balance between the ‘d’ and ‘a’ strings could probably be a bit better, the definition of the ‘c’ string could maybe be better, and I could probably intonate it better overall, but otherwise it was pretty easy, and the bass plays fantastic. If anything, it seems to actually _like_ fifths tuning better: seems to sustain better, harmonics ring stronger. Fantastic sounding with the exception that some of the low end seems to just be getting ‘lost in the translation’. The otherwise temperamental neck hasn’t budged either (in using the string calculator, I picked gauges that balanced on the lower tension side.)

The Ric needed some work anyway, so I had it done at Lull’s. My left hand finds it to be a little easier, the string volume and tone is more balanced (again: pro job). I think any deficiencies in sound are down to my atrocious technique (primarily) and the old, meh Ric pickups (low output and a bit muddy).

For now, and since I am not gigging or anything, I’ve been playing the Ric mostly.

Which brings me to my question for this thread: I love TI flats... but not on my jazz. I’d really like to try flats in 5ths tuning on the 4001, particularly the TI flats, but am a little concerned that the tension is going to be inconsistent and largely too low.

The issues my right hand has with Ric string/pickup spacing are probably not germane to this post. All relationships take work, right?

I tend to have a light touch, playing finger style above the end of the fingerboard or over the neck pickup. This works ok on the Ric, but I am still working on finessing the clean vs clackety. Still, I like this bass - it tends towards the mellow end for Rics, very much the scooped P-bass sound.

So, exposition and digressions aside, questions:
1. Anyone have experience setting up a Ric with TI flats in this tuning? Does it work? Too slack? Too inconsistent? I’m afraid this may push things into too-clackety territory...
2. Is there a good alternative in flatwound, round-core strings I could consider for a more balanced set to achieve the same sonic aim?

I have perused octave4plus.com but it is not clear to me that this would be the equivalent of ordering a custom set of TI flats.

So, given the goal of getting a well-balanced set of round-core flats In fifths tuning, that sound like TI flats, on my Ric 4001, what would y’all recommend?

Thanks in advance.

Apologies for the choppiness and inconsistency of this post: doing it on my phone between meetings, work, commute, etc.

 

[jharms80439]

vox.j,

Just about any set of 5 string med, med-light or light flats will work. You may need to experiment to find the tone that you like though - again just about any 5 string set will “work”.

If you want to try TIs, go for it! Otherwise Chromes, LaBella, GHS, etc. will have different tone, so decide that first, then try them out.

In a flatwound set, I’ve found that a bit lighter than what you use in (5ths) rounds is a bit better for feel. Of course this is IMHO and YMMV though.

FWIW, I’ve tried most flat sets out there and most keep their characteristic tone when strung in 5ths. Just be sure to choose whether you want a dark, middy or zingy character in your flats before you buy.

That said, give it a shot and IMHO, you’ll be fine. Oh (and) welcome to 5ths!

John

P.S. One more item. If you do try TIs, try the A string detuned to G and if it is too floppy, try the E string tuned up to A. I did and I liked it...

 

[w3stoner]

I have my Rick in mostly 5ths (CGDG) with TI Jazz Flats on it. It does great, the C is fine the lower G is just slightly anemic but playable. It really wants to be thicker, in .8/.9 range which unfortunately the closest they get is .96 in the extra long set. I've considered throwing the E on there in it's place (.100) but am slightly worried about the tension. The D and high G are fine. I tune the high G to A about a 1/3 of the time and it's good at that pitch as well.

(Hmm ? I see above that John's used the E on his for the low G... Time to dig out my box of E strings)...

 

[Shanannigan]

Speaking of TI Flats I'm also waiting on a set right now. I dropped my tuning recently to BbFCGDA. C just didn't feel low enough for me, and I like having the exact cello tuning on top.

I figure I'll probably keep the two top strings as the plain Kalliums I have now. The B will obviously go down to Bb, E shouldn't have a problem with F, I'll see if A or D is better at C, and G stays G of course.

 

[Allfifthstuning]

I've just recently found this thread and was thrilled to see so many fellow all fifths tuners!

Five years ago I've switched to an all fifths tuning, after I've been going back and forth to several tunings on my guitar.
While studying guitar I was always annoyed with the extra amount of fingerings needed to play the same chords and scales on the neck. Besides that I always wanted to be able to play in both the bass and the guitar register.

I tune my electric guitars low F (one step above low E of a bass) up to high e (same as high on a regular guitar).
For example:

I have a baritone acoustic which I tuned from Low C (one step above low B) up to b (same as the b on a guitar).
For example:

My five string (fretless) I also tune starting from a low C.

For my guitars I use a regular four string bass set and a guitar set of strings:
F - E bass string
C - D bass string
G - E or A guitar string
D - D string
A - G or B guitar string
E - E guitar string
I trim the bass strings to the appropriate size.

For my baritone and fretless I use flatwound single strings (but will buy a regular five string set of chromes + one or two single guitar string when I need new strings):
C - 0.132
G - 0.090
D - 0.060
A - 0.040
E - 0.026
(B - 0.018 or 0.016)

For those interested I've made a chord and scale book what a creative common licence, so free to download.

Hans

 

[Shanannigan]

Hey Allfifthstuning, glad to see you here. Your videos and chord/scale book helped me a lot during my transition from fourths to fifths tuning.