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The Fifths Tuning Club

All of my basses are tuned in fifths. I have two four string long scales, two six string short scales (but I converted one to a five string), and a Squier 51 which is a Stratocaster that is styled to vaguely resemble a 51 P-bass and which I converted to a four string for now. I may go back to six strings on that one but that is another story! The long scales are not difficult to find suitable fifths strings for at either Bass Strings Online or Kalium.

My six string short scale is a Squier VI, basically a long scale, three pickup Jazzmaster guitar that is intended to be tuned like a guitar but an octave down. Labella makes strings for it and allow you to order custom sets where you pick the gauges for each of the six string from their fairly broad selection of gauges. I tune the bottom string on that down to C using a 120 gauge string. Other brands make strings for the VI too but I cannot tell you if they allow you to order custom sets. I think that string availability for this particular instrument is aided by the fact that it appeals to both bassists and to guitarists who want a deep baritone instrument and both camps use a variety of tunings. If you want to get one they are still available new from Squier and they are in your price range. A lot of bassists shun them because they resemble guitars too closely and they have a guitar's very narrow string spacing. Someone coming from banjo might not have those hangups and in fact some of us bassists don't have them either! I played mine in the church band yesterday with a lineup that was reduced to me, synth, and piano due to everyone's summer vacations. I am a really lousy excuse for a guitarist but that instrument tuned in fifths has a HUGE range and I could easily use my limited skills to fill in for the missing guitars in a couple of places. Again, a banjo player can undoubtedly make much better use of that range than I. My CGDAEB tuning is the original vision that Robert Fripp had for his New Standard Tuning (NST) for guitars but an octave down. I read that it is difficult to impossible to get a reliable B string when you tune an octave up on a 25.5 inch scale but that has not been an issue so far when tuned down an octave on a 30 inch scale.

Sorry for the extended infomercial on fifths tuned Squier VIs but it does seem like an option that you should consider and it is easy to overlook. I don't play mine that much but as I rehearsed and then performed with it last week I realized that mine really deserves more love from me!

My other short scale is an Ibanez SRC6 that I converted to a five string, an SRC5 if you will. The wider spacing you get on that with only five strings feels more natural to me but you might be happy with one just as they come from the factory. New I think they are outside your price range but I got mine used from Guitar Center for about $400. There is a classifieds section here on TalkBass where you can probably find a used one from time to time as well.

For the Ibanez and the Squier 51 I cut down long scale bass strings. "Everyone" here on TB says you cannot do this because the strings will unravel but if you listen carefully there are a few of us here who claim to do it successfully. My approach is to fit the string to the bass, mark where I want the outer windings to end, and then put something on the string between the nut and the tuning post to keep the string from unwinding. Originally my plan was to crimp some short pieces of brass tubing that you can get from a hardware store on the string. But when I actually went to do it one night I just decided to use some electrical shrink wrap tubing that I had in the basement instead of brass tubing that I would have to go out and buy the next day. That seems to work fine for round wounds and pressure wound strings. I don't know if it would be successful with flats.

The Squier 51 is available only used now as far as I know and converting one to a bass may be more of an adventure than you are up for. Even if you leave it at six strings I don't know if the existing bridges on guitars will intonate properly with heavier bass strings. I don't tune the 51 as low as the others which all start on C. My 51 is tuned GDAE right now although I have given some thought to tuning FCGD to get a little closer to the traditional bass low note. There is a thread here on TB called Sub Short Scale Bass Club or something like that where guitar to bass conversions are discussed. If you have an interest in that you can check that out.

The Ibanez Mikro and the Squier Short Scale Jaguar are both available in your price range and both have a decent reputation among owners here. The Jag is a four, the Mikro can be had with four or five strings. If you are ok with a six string guitar tuned down to the bass range there are 27 to 29 inch baritone guitars that you can find in your price range used for sure and maybe there are some in your range new too. Squier also makes a 30 inch hard tail Jazzmaster, a few years ago Fender made a nice Telecaster baritone you might find used somewhere, Eastwood makes a few, and I am sure there are others but I am not familiar with.

Sorry for the novel length post but I think you can find something suitable out there and you should be able to get strings for it from Kalium if nowhere else.
 
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khutch,

Are you tuning your 5 string CGDAE? If so, how useful do you find having the high E string? Also, what’s your opinion on the timbre of the E when compared to the other strings.

IMHO (and I may be all wet with this thinking), for me at least, it’s not all about the extended range, but about executing the music with less shifts to higher frets (more across the fretboard than up the neck).

I ask your opinion as I formerly played mostly 6’s and a few 7’s and now have only 4’s in 5ths. I just traded a 6 in 4ths for a 5 that I plan on stringing in 5ths and am again looking forward to the extended range in a more compact package. And, yes, it’s in order to play across the fretboard and in order to play up the neck a bit too.

FWIW, I just ordered a custom set from Kalium with multiple high E strings to get it to feel and sound right. I’m also putting together a set of flats from LaBella that “should” be close, but with a plain high E. I think the Kalium set should be fine, unsure about the flat set though...

John
 
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I play a 6 tuned in CGDAEB. The higher strings are plain and have a guitar-like timbre to them.
I'm currently using Kalium, and they're fine, though a bit bright for my taste. I tried out some La Bella flats but found that the tension was a bit high in that tuning, though that's up to subjective taste.
 
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Shanannigan,

Thanks for the info - I figured that might be the case. BTW, which LaBella flats did you try?

These are what I ordered:

Flatwounds in 5ths (current)
C - 0.128 760FM-B LaBella
G - 0.089 760FS-B LaBella
D - 0.056 760FS-B LaBella
A - 0.039 760FS-B LaBella
E 0.023 Plain Kalium
E 0.022 Plain Kalium
E 0.021 Plain Kalium

I bought the 760FX-B set too but I found them not so good for what I was looking for - G was really too light for the A - for me anyway. If you are going for really fast fretless passages, the 760FX-B set may be just the ticket for your playing style.

I did notice that when I installed the Rotosounds, they sounded a bit thin and a bit warbley in tone and thought that I had them twisted. Checked, no twists and re-tuned to pitch and the warble was still there. Then I purposefully twisted them 1/2 turn at a time from the bridge (I did clockwise from the rear of the bass) and re-tuned them. After ~1.5 turns or so, the warble was gone and they now sound full and deep. Just something to watch for as these are well used and old strings...

Before I go with Gary's strings from over at Octave4Plus and incur the development expense for a new set, I wanted to give a flat string 5ths set a try on a new to me 5 string bass.

John

__________

Update:

I actually swapped things around a bit.

Flats on a 4 in 5ths to sound close to my upright and the tension is pretty good too!

C - 0.128 760FM-B LaBella
G - 0.089 760FS-B LaBella
D - 0.075 Rotosound TruBass 88
A - 0.065 Rotosound TruBass 88

Now I do really like the FM-B low B for the C and the A from the FS sets when tuned to 5ths. The C(B) from the FM-B set and the G(A) from the FS-B set really match in both tone & feel, and "sort of" feel like my Spirocores (Red Mitchell C & G) on my upright when tuned to 5ths pitch. The Rotosounds timbre is also pretty close to thumb position on my upright.

Flats in 5ths on a 5 are:

C - 0.128 760FM-B LaBella
G - 0.089 760FS-B LaBella
D - 0.056 760FS-B LaBella
A - 0.039 760FS-B LaBella
E 0.020 High Carbon Piano Wire, next is a 0.019...
 
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A while back I bought some plain (non-wound) carbon steel piano wire. I may end up rolling my own if the Kalium strings are too bright - provided I have the right gauge/size.

Not sure how the carbon steel will hold up being plucked all the time though. It may end up looking sort of dingy after a while but may sound fine. I imagine one could buy either nickel plated or nickel alloy wire too but I haven't searched for it yet.

John
 
To those that find building your own strings of interest...

:)

I just built two high E (e?) strings from "high carbon steel wire" i.e. piano wire. Read this as IMHO, YMMV, etc. and I run with custom Kalium strings in 5ths on my 4's.

Also, if you ever decide to build similar strings, PLEASE use a vice for the bass ball end and wrap the string with loose coils (~1/8" apart for the wraps) and only for ~1/2", then tight (i.e very closely together) to finish. A pair of alligator vice grips help holding the wrapping end of the string and while your other hand holds the "string" portion of the wire. Finally, WEAR SAFETY GLASSES while wrapping the wire as we really don't need any one-eyed-bass-players.

First string was made from .014" wire. Tone is too bright/strident and the timbre doesn't match my newer Kalium Hybrids. Feel is a bit light too as it is a really thin string and bends out of pitch pretty easily so your left hand technique will need to be pretty clean. This diameter "might" match new stainless strings, but not the Kalium Hybrids. Frankly for my tastes, it's too light.

Second string was made from .020" wire. Tight feeling string. Tone matches the Kalium Hybrids very well. Tone is round and smooth (I'll know this weekend whether it might match stainless flats perfectly or not). Timbre is not pingy or overly bright at all. Sustain at ~18-24 frets is pretty short. Bends are doable, but aren't pleasant due to the string tension. R5Octave chords ring out well but the upper octave tone isn't strident from the octave string at all.

Anyway, those are the two piano wire string diameters that I had on hand. Likely I'll want to go just a tad lighter (smaller) than the .020" wire. I'll start looking for ~10' lengths of .017"-.019" high carbon wire - which is what I bought last time. But, if all I had was a .020" high E string, I'd do me fine. I'll deal with the tension if it results in better tone.

As I find additional wire and build more strings, I'll post here what I find. Just note that the High Carbon Piano Wire matches nickel strings pretty well if you get the diameter right.

Note: This is a pretty new area for me - i.e the range of a 7 in the form factor of a 5 while tuned in 5ths. Long ago I started on 6 string basses and I've previously owned/played many 7 string basses with a high F over the years. Ultimately left wrist problems forced me to go back to 6 string basses - and now I'm using 4's tuned in 5ths. With the high E string - even just dinking around after making the strings - I believe that I will LOVE having the range of a 7 in a 5 string package. As with all things in life, YMMV and all of this is IMHO.

Be well,

John
 
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I did the exact same pairing for the La Bella set. For the E I tried a .20 Kalium but found it to be a bit tight, so I lowered it to .19 which seems good.

I need to take a break on purchasing strings for a bit, since I've spent a good amount over the past year on string combinations for my acoustic and now my electrics. But I want to try to put together a combination of TI-Jazz Flats, I love the feel and sound of them so it would be great if I can make that work.
 
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Too funny. I’ve dropped $200 in the last couple of days on new strings too. I’m with you on taking a break from string buying...

The good thing is that I have 5 1-gallon freezer bags full of electric bass strings. Some Kalium, some OTC. Most still in good shape. I’m able o mix & match flat sets and round sets sort of at will. The only rub comes into play is when they’re not standard “Fender” cut but are either Stingray or Clement cuts and don’t fit my current basses.

I’ll try the .019 from Kalium (I ordered a .018”, .019” & .020” from Kalium to try all three). Hopefully the .019 will be Goldilocks and be just right.

Thanks again for the help.

John
 
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I got my 5 string tuned to CGDAE. High E is plain string so it has more of guitar-like tone but I think if I use it at the right place (in the band playing), I consider it as "more variety of taste". Also I think thinner strings are easier to play when I practice classical pieces.
 
I tune all of my basses save one starting on C so the four ends on A, the fives on E, and the six on B. The one exception is not really a bass. It is a Squier 51 which is a Stratocaster body, a Telecaster neck, and a 51 Precision pickguard and control plate. Haven't tried it but I doubt that a low C is practical on a 25.5 inch scale so I have been tuning that one GDAE by using a bass bridge, a new nut, and just skipping two of the tuners when I string it up. I would imagine it could be tuned FCGD to match the low not of a traditional four more closely but for the time being I am more interested in having it match my other basses.

I make good use of the top strings, more so on the fives than the six. As you move from string to string the tone becomes more guitar like. If there is a way to prevent that I have been unmotivated to find it. I play in a church band that often has no electric guitar and sometimes no acoustic guitar either. So there is occasionally some pressure on me to fill in for them and when there is a guitar like tone is the object, not a shortcoming! I'd make more use of that if I were much use as a guitarist but I am not. I can occasionally be useful in that role even though I would need much more practice to be any good at it. Five or six strings are great for chording where the higher voice produces more pleasant chords.
 
Ordered a set of LaBella 760FX strings a week or so ago. Installed them this evening on my new to me Martin Keith Elfin. It is a 34.5” scale, so YMMV.

B->C is perfect (.128)
A->G is a tad light (.077), I’ll likely go with a .085 from the FS set
D->D is spot on with good tension and timbre
G->A is exceptional, found this string to be too light previously on my 34” scale basses, but here it’s great

Tried a few high E strings, .018 through .023, heavier matches timbre and tension mo’ better. .023 is on the bass right now.

I was worried a bit about the tension and on the E (.023 was the largest I ordered), but that’s okay too. Feels tighter than it is due to the thin string. The lower the tension & smaller the diameter, the higher the “ping” factor. Heavier mellows the tone out a lot.

Now to order the .085 and perhaps a couple of heavier plain high E strings - if I can find them (Kalium only goes to a .023).

So, now I have a fretless with a dark woody tone and a bright P/J that nails the slap tone well. I was going for a mellow jazz guitar type tone here with the extended range of a 7 string in a 5 string package. Nailed it - almost. Getting closer though. And all are tuned in 5ths.

Now to get the other string(s) on order and break ‘em in...

John
 
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Ricky,

Done.

But she’s a jealous sort, so here she is alongside my Hoppus/Warmoth too.

The fretless is still waiting for her Warmoth flame maple fretless neck. It’ll be a few weeks for her glamour shot.

Note on strings: LaBella DTF low B strings are tapered and GHS Precision Flats are not. I had an intonation issue with the Elfin. GHS’ sound great and worn in right from the start, and intonation wasn’t an issue either.

Wasn’t a fan of the GHS D or A (G) string though (too heavy when tuned in 5ths). Kept the LaBella D & .039 G. D is fine and the G tuned to an A, no problem. Both sound great too.

As always, this is IMHO and YMMV.

John
 

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This is a call out to the 5ths tuning flatwound (and hopefully fretless) players out in TB land. I need some 5ths flatwound string suggestions - to hopefully, get it right the first time around and not have to order & cut multiple bone nuts on a new neck.

Yesterday I received my new Warmoth fretless Flame Maple fingerboard overhang style 24 position (fret?) neck. It arrived in drop dead gorgeous form and the flame maple figure really is outstanding. I think that it'll go great on my Warmoth Korina jazz body with Dimarzio Area J's with the David Certain Varitone & Babicz bridge.

This weekend I'll be using the Minwax wipe on satin poly to the back/sides of the neck after I tape everything up. I've also ordered the bone nut and the 10" radius block for the CA/Superglue fingerboard finish I will apply. I already have on hand the many grits of sandpaper & micro mesh, polishing compounds and tuners, so I expect that sometime late next week or early the week after I'll start final assembly.

Now comes the hard part - choosing strings. Recently, I ordered a set of LaBella 760FX-B's for my Martin Keith, but ended up using GHS Precision Flats for the C & G. The mix of strings sound terrific on that bass - deep, warm & round sounding - just what I was looking for on that bass. I've used the FX-B strings on a fretted Fender MIM Precision and I wasn't really a fan on that bass. I've also used 5ths tuning with LaBella 760FM-B's, Chromes, GHS Precision Flats and TI's.

I prefer a deep fundamental tone, but not a whole bunch of mwah which leads me to the FM-B's or the GHS Precision Flats. I know that the CA fingerboard may give me just a bit of that, so setup will be uber important.

As you can tell, I'm not opposed to mixing & matching strings either as I do that quite a bit too. Also, I'm not opposed to high tension - rather prefer that too. However G strings above ~.045 get quite tight when tuned up to A.

So, here's the question - how would you string it up?

John
 
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So, I thought I'd update the 5ths tuning club (for those that are curious) on my 5 string Martin Keith Elfin 5ths tuned bass project. This is the bass that I'm looking to have set up for that mellow jazz guitar sound in the higher register - but only on a bass...

After trying to get the timbre right with a plain .023 high E string with a mix of GHS Precision Flats for the C & G string and LaBella 760FX's for the D & A string, I just wasn't that happy with the volume between the strings. Tone was good, but string to string volume was horrid. I tried a .018, .019, .020, .022 to no avail - the high E string was still too strident (loud) in comparison to the other strings.

The MK Elfin bass has an Aguilar OBP-2 preamp and Harvey Citron pickups, and I'm unsure just how flat this preamp/pickup combo is or how much tone is baked into the preamp/pickup combination. I wish that the highs on the preamp were frequency adjustable for where to boost & cut, but I'll need to go to an East preamp for that sort of flexibility and I really don't want to change up the bass much at the moment.

In order to check my ears, I went so far as to download the iTunes "Decibel X" app (for the iPhone) to see if I was crazy thinking that the high E string was too loud. The app confirmed that the high E was indeed louder than the other strings - open strings and fretted notes too. Of course I don't know how flat the iPhone mic is though... I know, I know, a lighter string "should" make the bass sound not as loud, but I surely couldn't tell a difference with my ears - only that the tone/timbre with the lighter strings wasn't the tone the I was looking for - plus IMHO the lighter strings don't feel great on a bass - of course, YMMV.

Anyway, I started thinking that if I couldn't make the E string any softer, how could I make the other strings LOUDER!?! So back to my 5-1 gallon sized baggies of fairly new & well used strings I went, and I started pulling out all of the flatwounds. After trying most all of them, I ended up with a fairly new set of D'Addario Chromes on the bass. With the D'Ad chromes the bass' string volume was closer than with any of the other strings. I ended up keeping the .023 Kalium as it has the best feel against the other strings and with the D'Ad Chromes, the sound is pretty well balanced.

Long-story short, I was able to use my Mesa Subway preamp to adjust the tone for a balanced tone for the high E - again per the app and my ears - (and was able to keep the bass treble and tone controls flat on the bass). The sound/timbre with the new Mesa settings are good with my other 5ths tuned basses too. BTW, the tone settings are now not even near what I used to run. Go figure... I'll need to now hear how the sound cuts through in a live setting.

FWIW, I've NEVER really liked D'Ad Chromes on my other basses. I was pretty much a LaBella or GHS flats user on my basses with flats - and on this bass at least, they sound pretty darn good!

Anyway, I hope the info help others!

John

P.S./FWIW, I still haven't settled on strings for my rebuilt fretless (that bass is wearing GHS Precision Flats at the moment), but the neck's flamed maple fingerboard is now finished with CA/Superglue and polished to a high gloss - and the rest of the neck is wearing Minwax's wipe on poly that has been buffed with 0000 steel wool for a good worn in type of feel. The neck feels smooth as heck and is an easy player. Now to start mixing flatwound strings for the best fretless feel & tone...
 
I've never heard of it. Although The closest I can think is Mandolin which are usually tuned in fifths, they use 4 strings 2 course tuned in unison.

Your best bet for custom gauges is Kalium, that's what a lot of people go with because they specialize in custom gauges.

If you get it done be sure to post something.
 
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I've never heard of it. Although The closest I can think is Mandolin which are usually tuned in fifths, they use 4 strings 2 course tuned in unison.

Your best bet for custom gauges is Kalium, that's what a lot of people go with because they specialize in custom gauges.

If you get it done be sure to post something.
It's not a specific instrument, just an idea I've had in my head. @Nev375 built something close with his octa-baritone but tuned in 4ths.