The Fifths Tuning Club

[jharms80439]

Wow.

@JeezyMcNuggles , you speak from such a position of authority. Good for you!

However, bass tradition may differ with your opinion. (Respectfully) @khutch does have it correct.

That said, everyone does have a right to their own (pink polka dotted/acid trippy) opinion.

Ascending Fifths (for both 4-string bass and cello) are CGDA. Which is what we are (primary) talking about in this thread. Ascending Fourths for bass would be (B)EADG(C)(F).

Hope this helps bring you back safely back to planet Earth...

John

(And PLEASE take this with both a grain of salt and know that I’m poking just a bit of fun at your response. Tradition is on the side @khutch and just a bit of history...)

 

[Will_White]

You're wrong. String 1 is the G string. 1234. Same as it's written. Why do you think tabs are upside down? Guitars are tuned EBGDAE. Basses are tuned GDAE. Not the other way around. They're fifths.

Not that I doubt your infinite wisdom, but 27 pages of this thread disagree with you.

 

[khutch]

You're wrong. String 1 is the G string. 1234. Same as it's written. Why do you think tabs are upside down? Guitars are tuned EBGDAE. Basses are tuned GDAE. Not the other way around. They're fifths.

It's not a matter of either one of us being wrong, or right. There are two ways of looking at this and each way has its followers as well as people who comfortably think in either way. There is a famous circle of notes called the circle of fifths (or do you say circle of fourths?). The name of the circle is ambiguous. If you traverse the circle in one direction it is a circle of fifths but if you stop and go back the other way it is a circle of fourths. The strings on a guitar (ignoring that pesky third) or bass are the same.

Invalid Link Removed Most of us do designate our tuning starting from the lowest pitched note to the highest and you will see that Fender (and Wikipedia and many, many others) follow this same convention. However, when we speak of strings numerically the more common convention is to number them the other way, number 1 is the highest pitched string! Even so there are some who will talk about the first string as the lowest pitched string.

No one should make their convention into a religion. It is better to train your mind to think either way when the need arises and to recognize which convention people you are talking to are using rather than assuming that they are following your convention.

The convention we have consistently used in this thread and in most places on TB is that tunings are described starting on the lowest pitch and proceeding to the highest. It is not Divine Law, it is just the convention that we use. A famous song declares that:

Now I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord

and the song goes on to describe the "chord" but it is not a chord that the following lines describe but a chord run. So we don't really know what the secret chord is. Until we discover it we will continue to use our various conventions and also our good will towards our fellow musicians in those cases when we use different conventions.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Not that I doubt your infinite wisdom, but 27 pages of this thread disagree with you.

It's tough cuz people do it both ways. High to low may be the more "legit" way, and low to high is the more "colloquial" or "common" way, but neither is really right or wrong as long as you can clearly understand what is being communicated. In the context of this thread, we are talking about "fifths tuning" so we should understand what somebody means either way they choose to write it, but in other contexts we may have to take another step to clarify things.

Even the old DB treatises go back and forth on this, so, you know, it's just a thing we have to try not to get confused by.

 

[BarfanyShart]

You're wrong. String 1 is the G string. 1234. Same as it's written. Why do you think tabs are upside down? Guitars are tuned EBGDAE. Basses are tuned GDAE. Not the other way around. They're fifths.

Also, the way we talk about things and the way we notate things in a musical context is usually different. For example, guitar strings are commonly notated and referred to high-to-low 1-6, but I've never heard anybody describe the interval between the g and b strings as a "descending minor sixth", that would be weird, everyone thinks about it and describes it as a "Major third".

 

[ixlramp]

You're wrong. String 1 is the G string. 1234. Same as it's written. Why do you think tabs are upside down? Guitars are tuned EBGDAE. Basses are tuned GDAE. Not the other way around. They're fifths.

The rest of the world defines standard-tuned bass guitars as being 'tuned in fourths', surely you must have noticed =)
Most people state a guitar tuning from low to high pitch, EADG or EADGBE, despite the string numbers being in the opposite order. Again, surely you must have noticed. It is rare to see someone describe standard bass tuning as GDAE.
The intervals between the open notes are 5 semitones, which is a fourth, and this is true whether you state a tuning low to high EADG or high to low GDAE.
GDAE only 'looks' like fifths because the letters match a sequence of ascending fifths, but you are stating GDAE in descending pitches.

Tabs are, as you put it, 'upside-down', because that visually matches the fretboard when you look at it, no other reason. This has nothing to do with what order tunings are stated in, it is purely to be visually intuitive.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

The rest of the world defines standard-tuned bass guitars as being 'tuned in fourths', surely you must have noticed =)
Most people state a guitar tuning from low to high pitch, EADG or EADGBE, despite the string numbers being in the opposite order. Again, surely you must have noticed. It is rare to see someone describe standard bass tuning as GDAE.
The intervals between the open notes are 5 semitones, which is a fourth, and this is true whether you state a tuning low to high EADG or high to low GDAE.
GDAE only 'looks' like fifths because the letters match a sequence of ascending fifths, but you are stating GDAE in descending pitches.

Tabs are, as you put it, 'upside-down', because that visually matches the fretboard when you look at it, no other reason. This has nothing to do with what order tunings are stated in, it is purely to be visually intuitive.

Ha, yeah it visually matches the fret board when you look at your bass head on and upside down. Hahaha. Nah dude. String 1 is your lowest most string. They count up towards your head. It's written that way to coincide with standard notation. IE : notes on a scale range from high to low, top to bottom. String 1 being your highest string, would then be at the top of the scale. String 4 - 6 would then be at the bottom. Since tabs are written in numbered fashions, no notes presented, they are laid out from top to bottom in string numbers. Hate to break the bubble on the misrepresentation club going on here, but it is the way it is because that's just how it is. And, most of you know all this. It shouldn't even be a discussion. He should've titled the thread differently. It doesn't matter how you choose to speak the order. You can say it however you want to. As long as others understand. But, you can't rewrite the book. It's that way because they invented it that way. And you know it.

 

[Shanannigan]

In 17 years of playing, gigging, and schooling, I have only ever heard bassists, and for that matter musicians of any stringed instrument list tunings from low to high. Not once have I ever heard it the other way. Go ahead and google bass tuning, any site from Wikipedia to educational sites will have it listed from low to high.

Search up tunings for guitar, mandolin, ukulele, whatever you want and you'll see that in virtually every instance tunings are listed from low to high.

You're the first person I've seen claim that it's the other way around, and the fact that you're so adamant about it is frankly bizarre.

 

[Shanannigan]

A further note, following the tradition of tunings being listed low to high, tunings are even named after the lowest tuned string. E standard, drop D, Open C, DADGAD, etc.

 

[pklima]

Yes, otherwise the joke about violins being tuned GDAE, which is Australian for hello, wouldn't make sense.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

You're wrong. String 1 is the G string. 1234. Same as it's written. Why do you think tabs are upside down? Guitars are tuned EBGDAE. Basses are tuned GDAE. Not the other way around. They're fifths.

This is Jimmy Haslip isn't it!

 

[khutch]

Ha, yeah it visually matches the fret board when you look at your bass head on and upside down. Hahaha. Nah dude. String 1 is your lowest most string. They count up towards your head. It's written that way to coincide with standard notation. IE : notes on a scale range from high to low, top to bottom. String 1 being your highest string, would then be at the top of the scale. String 4 - 6 would then be at the bottom. Since tabs are written in numbered fashions, no notes presented, they are laid out from top to bottom in string numbers. Hate to break the bubble on the misrepresentation club going on here, but it is the way it is because that's just how it is. And, most of you know all this. It shouldn't even be a discussion. He should've titled the thread differently. It doesn't matter how you choose to speak the order. You can say it however you want to. As long as others understand. But, you can't rewrite the book. It's that way because they invented it that way. And you know it.

This has to be one of the most bizarre paragraphs ever written on TB!

Why do we say we tune in fifths? Because a great many of us tune like cellists tune and they call theirs a fifths tuning. We tune an octave below a cello, the viola is tuned an octave above. As mentioned previously the violin uses the Australian tuning. All of these instruments are said to use fifths tunings. By whom? By music majors. You know, those folks who get degrees and often advanced degrees in traditional music theory from prestigious universities that are based on centuries worth of accumulated western music tradition. They say we tune in fifths and we believe them because they are the people who wrote the book.

You say we tune in fourths, we simply don't believe you. We don't believe you've even read the book.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

This has to be one of the most bizarre paragraphs ever written on TB!

Why do we say we tune in fifths? Because a great many of us tune like cellists tune and they call theirs a fifths tuning. We tune an octave below a cello, the viola is tuned an octave above. As mentioned previously the violin uses the Australian tuning. All of these instruments are said to use fifths tunings. By whom? By music majors. You know, those folks who get degrees and often advanced degrees in traditional music theory from prestigious universities that are based on centuries worth of accumulated western music tradition. They say we tune in fifths and we believe them because they are the people who wrote the book.

You say we tune in fourths, we simply don't believe you. We don't believe you've even read the book.

No, I said standard tuning is in fifths. Others here are saying we all tune in fourths as standard.

 

[BarfanyShart]

No, I said standard tuning is in fifths. Others here are saying we all tune in fourths as standard.

At this point, you gotta stop trolling this thread, dude. This thread is for people interested in what we all agree to refer to as "fifths tuning" - and if you are not interested in that topic, then something else on TB may be of interest to you.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

At this point, you gotta stop trolling this thread, dude. This thread is for people interested in what we all agree to refer to as "fifths tuning" - and if you are not interested in that topic, then something else on TB may be of interest to you.

You may want to look at his avatar; either he's a lefty, mirrored the image, or he might actually be serious!!

 

[khutch]

No, I said standard tuning is in fifths. Others here are saying we all tune in fourths as standard.

When you say that the standard tuning is a fifths tuning you are automatically saying that the tunings we discuss here are fourths tunings. If you do not understand even THAT then you really do not have enough of a grasp on music theory to discuss this matter.

It isn't just others here who say that the standard tuning is fourths. Pretty much everyone other than yourself on planet Earth says that. So, the question is are you a troll, or a legitimate seeker of the truth who is struggling to understand guitar tunings? If it is the latter then Invalid Link Removed, you know, the people who make guitars, might help.

 

[Martin Lillich]

Hi, thank you all who contributed their experience!
(To those, who just drop by to sneeze at something they have no clue about, and no interest in, stay out and live with your prejudices.)

Due to teaching bass, of course I still play (and enjoy that specific sound) the standard tuning as well.
In my first year with 5ths, I just practiced and experimented at home, to build a parallel habit to my 35 years of working musicianship on 4ths. Step by step, I took the 5ths tuning on stage, enjoying the fresh sounds & ideas.
I am using a DAEB (low-high) 5ths-tuning since 15 years on standard gauge basses (upright & electric), and a FCGD (a 5th lower than cello) on a 3/4 double bass that I call a "bassello".
Here´s my website: Martin Lillich

Building new fingering skills gave me to a much deeper understanding of string instrument playing in general, and it made me lose the fear of "having to throw away 35 years of experience". If you keep in mind, that it´s business as usual on each individual string, and that (drum roll...!) the visual map of the 5ths tuning fingerboard is just a mirror of the 4ths tuning fingerboard; then you´ll understand even as a non bass player, that the segments of chords, scales, melodies are just the same, you only connect them in a slightly different way.
I discovered new ways to get out of the "position playing prison" (in any tuning), in fact I just then became aware of having been a position playing prisoner for decades. Nowadays I feel free, hand me a Cello, a Viola, a turkish or arabic Oud, and I know how to find any melody or chord on it immediately, anywhere on it´s neck.
To my big surprise, everything that I had practiced so hard on standard tuning was still useful now on 5ths.

Another surprise was, that almost no one noticed how I tuned my basses. But my excitement, my new awareness, more clarity and warmth in my sound, those were noticed by the audience and fellow musicians.

Why did I explore the 5ths tuning? Well, I was a hard line 4ths tuning man myself, and only after I found out that 5-string or 6-string basses are simply not my thing at all, I knew that there is only one way to get a larger range on my instruments. Believe me, I hated the idea of the 5th tuning, due to my above mentioned fears and prejudice, but there you go, if you see only one way to achieve your goal, you travel it, as hard as it may be.

Recently I read about Ralph Patt Invalid Link Removed and Tony Corman https://www.tonycorman.com/, two excellent musicians, who tune(d) their guitars in major 3rds. You can learn a lot about your own music by checking out the ways that other musicians explored!

Finally, whatever tuning you choose, tune up well, and never stop practicing. Methods only and exclusively work, when they are put into action, and are constantly being reviewed and updated by practical application.

Link to an electric bass string maker: All about the Bass (strings) – Newtone Strings
link to a double bass string maker: Sonores - Gerold Genssler | String Manufacture Berlin | Home

 

[Papageno]

I am using a DAEB (low-high) 5ths-tuning since 15 years on standard gauge basses (upright & electric), and a FCGD (a 5th lower than cello) on a 3/4 double bass that I call a "bassello".

Isn't 3/4 the "standard" size for a double bass?

 

[Martin Lillich]

3/4 & 4/4 are both common. My 3/4 Pöllmann has a slightly shorter open string length: 98 cm, it sounds great also with a low D, but my bassello tuning gives me exactly the range that I need.

 

[Papageno]

I am using a DAEB (low-high) 5ths-tuning since 15 years on standard gauge basses (upright & electric), and a FCGD (a 5th lower than cello) on a 3/4 double bass that I call a "bassello".

3/4 & 4/4 are both common. My 3/4 Pöllmann has a slightly shorter open string length: 98 cm, it sounds great also with a low D, but my bassello tuning gives me exactly the range that I need.

Got it. But should we understand that you play your 4/4 tuned DAEB (low-high)? If yes, kudos! I gave some thoughts to playing in 5ths, but the impossiblity of playing 3rds without shifting has always detered me. It would be interesting to learn about the fingering strategies that can be used to overcome this obstacle.