Well, the reason this thread was named what it was is that the OP wanted this to be a thread that ignored the "negative" aspects of her legacy and focused on the positive side. Unfortunately that lasted about half a page...
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
The Great Carol Kaye
- Thread starter Blackbird
- Start date
- Status
Maybe the OP should have chosen the subject more carefully... I guess some things you just can't ignore
Maybe people should learn to follow instructions.
Then again, self-service restaurants use sneeze guards for a reason...
I went back and roughly looked at how many posts were supportive of or critical of Carol, 71 in support, 96 critical, 20 neutral comments and 15 or so which did not fit into previously mentioned category types IMO
I think the reason why it has been difficult to stay on topic with this thread, is because, unlike a lot of other bassists discussed here, people's personal experiences with Carol seem to be like white noise that drowns out all the positive accomplishments and good that Carol has done in the world of bass, and continues to do.
Despite all that occurred with me, and, believe me, in some ways, some of this stuff really cut to the bone, I would like to say positive (this counts as a positive thread) things. I really have been in awe of Carol's playing, her accomplishments, the fact that she is still busy and active gigging, teaching, recording (do a search my my space for some of her recent recordings) and is committed in educating others. For all my negative experience, Carol was also very supportive and encouraging at times, and I cannot think of anyone I have learned more about music than Carol. The foundation of my playing was developed through Carol's teaching methods, and I will always be grateful that I crossed paths with Carol when I did.
Despite all that occurred with me, and, believe me, in some ways, some of this stuff really cut to the bone, I would like to say positive (this counts as a positive thread) things. I really have been in awe of Carol's playing, her accomplishments, the fact that she is still busy and active gigging, teaching, recording (do a search my my space for some of her recent recordings) and is committed in educating others. For all my negative experience, Carol was also very supportive and encouraging at times, and I cannot think of anyone I have learned more about music than Carol. The foundation of my playing was developed through Carol's teaching methods, and I will always be grateful that I crossed paths with Carol when I did.
I am amused by your characterization of most (as evidenced by this thread) of other people's personal experiences with this individual as "noise" (A biased opinion for sure). Where as you characterize "all her other accomplishments" as (only) "positive". It's OK I got over it. I am sure there are others who probably *won't* post who see my point.You really can't have one without the other. AAMOF You don't really hear a lot about Michael Vick's positive accomplishments only how terrible and negatve his dog fighting incident is and how quickly he should be brought down for his positive accomplishments as a result of his BAD actions... IMV, it's the same thing here. I finally have to say that this thread has run it's course for me.
Sometimes it only takes one negative thing to drown out a lifetime of positive. OJ Simpson is a good example. Vick is now the latest example. I don't put Carol down on their levels, but there are a lot of bassists who will never take her seriously about anything because of some of her claims. It's unfortunate in her case, but welcome to America.
Since you seem to have difficulty understanding my post, and its generally positive intent, perhaps I need to state my point on a more down-to-earth level.
Its too bad that all the negative stuff written about Carol has taken the focus away from all her positive accomplishments and the good she has done. The foundation of my playing was developed through Carol's teaching methods, and I will always be grateful that I crossed paths with Carol when I did.
If that is amusing, so be it.
I just now stumbled across this thread, and having not known much about Carol Kaye (except that she was a prolific session bassist from "The Time Before Rock And Roll"), all I can say after reading all these posts is ..... "WOW! 
I looked up some more information about her (on her website, wiki, miscellaneous 'other' places) and all I can say after searching through all that is ..... WOW!
Though I have no "cred'" to form opinions about her on this thread (apparently now retitiled "The Great But Amazingly Crotchety Carol Kaye"
), I'm going to comment anyway (ironically arrogant, isn't it?). Besides, if TheOriginalIntent of this thread hasn't yet been followed after this number of posts, it's probably a lost cause. 
-- There was a comment posted that seemed to disparage Carol Kaye by likening her to a "bricklayer" instead of an "architect". Interesting analogy. It seems that she was one hell of a bricklayer who built lots of famous brick based structures over the years that are very recognizable and well respected by many. It also seems that she was an innovative bricklayer who developed an amazingly successful and solid technique, on her own, through hard work and experience, and who also taught (and still teaches) many others how to benefit from that experience.
-- Another comment was made that Carol Kaye is probably a better bassist than the multitude of players here at TB. It's just possible that's correct, but only if one judges bass playing ability solely on sight reading 50's and 60's style pop/jazz bass lines for session work recorded in the manner of 50's and 60's style sessions. I know there are many bass players here on TB who are far superior to Ms. Kaye in other areas. For example, I'm a non-entity in the bass playing world, yet I'm certain that I could outplay her on any 70's rock and roll tune. Kind of a moot point though, because all sources, including her own writings, indicate that she wouldn't be interested in trying. And I'll admit that I have no interest in playing her style of 50's and 60's music, and that's probably an attitude shared by a majority of TB'ers.
-- In my experience, many people who are driven by some uncommonly intense desire to succeed at their chosen profession are also uncommonly opinionated and tend to not be concerned with tact when dealing with those who are less skilled in their area of expertise. It appears as if Carol Kaye is a archetypal example of this personality.
-- Any successful and talented person who is in the habit of only giving out opinions, as if they were incapable of error, is going to be disliked to a certain extent. If that person is also contemptuous of the opinions of others in a world where their opinions are relics of the past, and voices that contempt for others at every opportunity, then that turns some of that dislike into actual hatred.
-- I couldn't find any information that indicated that Carol Kaye had ever hurt anyone, stolen from anyone, cost anybody money or jobs, tried to sabotage other people's opportunities or took candy from babies. She simply appears to be like that grouchy neighbor guy who yells at all the kids to stay away from his lawn and stop making so darn much noise, but when one of the kids took the time to get to know him (and was careful not to mention *certain things* that set him off for some inexplicable reason) he found out that the guy had some pretty impressive knowledge and skill as well as accomplishments.
I looked up some more information about her (on her website, wiki, miscellaneous 'other' places) and all I can say after searching through all that is ..... WOW!
Though I have no "cred'" to form opinions about her on this thread (apparently now retitiled "The Great But Amazingly Crotchety Carol Kaye"
), I'm going to comment anyway (ironically arrogant, isn't it?). Besides, if TheOriginalIntent of this thread hasn't yet been followed after this number of posts, it's probably a lost cause. -- There was a comment posted that seemed to disparage Carol Kaye by likening her to a "bricklayer" instead of an "architect". Interesting analogy. It seems that she was one hell of a bricklayer who built lots of famous brick based structures over the years that are very recognizable and well respected by many. It also seems that she was an innovative bricklayer who developed an amazingly successful and solid technique, on her own, through hard work and experience, and who also taught (and still teaches) many others how to benefit from that experience.
-- Another comment was made that Carol Kaye is probably a better bassist than the multitude of players here at TB. It's just possible that's correct, but only if one judges bass playing ability solely on sight reading 50's and 60's style pop/jazz bass lines for session work recorded in the manner of 50's and 60's style sessions. I know there are many bass players here on TB who are far superior to Ms. Kaye in other areas. For example, I'm a non-entity in the bass playing world, yet I'm certain that I could outplay her on any 70's rock and roll tune. Kind of a moot point though, because all sources, including her own writings, indicate that she wouldn't be interested in trying. And I'll admit that I have no interest in playing her style of 50's and 60's music, and that's probably an attitude shared by a majority of TB'ers.
-- In my experience, many people who are driven by some uncommonly intense desire to succeed at their chosen profession are also uncommonly opinionated and tend to not be concerned with tact when dealing with those who are less skilled in their area of expertise. It appears as if Carol Kaye is a archetypal example of this personality.
-- Any successful and talented person who is in the habit of only giving out opinions, as if they were incapable of error, is going to be disliked to a certain extent. If that person is also contemptuous of the opinions of others in a world where their opinions are relics of the past, and voices that contempt for others at every opportunity, then that turns some of that dislike into actual hatred.
-- I couldn't find any information that indicated that Carol Kaye had ever hurt anyone, stolen from anyone, cost anybody money or jobs, tried to sabotage other people's opportunities or took candy from babies. She simply appears to be like that grouchy neighbor guy who yells at all the kids to stay away from his lawn and stop making so darn much noise, but when one of the kids took the time to get to know him (and was careful not to mention *certain things* that set him off for some inexplicable reason) he found out that the guy had some pretty impressive knowledge and skill as well as accomplishments.
I have personal evidence of her trying to hurt people. She had a long period of being really aggressive with lawsuits, so much so that just mentioning her name was banned at a couple bass forums back in the very late 90s.
hbarcat, what makes you think there's something harder about 70s rock? She was a session pro--she could--and probably still can--cut whatever you put in front of her
hbarcat, what makes you think there's something harder about 70s rock? She was a session pro--she could--and probably still can--cut whatever you put in front of her
Possibly THE funniest thing EVER WRITTEN on Talkbass.....
Not being nasty cos I enjoyed the post, not that many well considered and written posts on any forum, but seriously mate, Carol Kaye, drunk, asleep, with one arm, on crack, upside down, in space, whenever, whatever, wherever would kick your ass....
Totally, absolutely, comprehensively. Im sure of it.
L
Ya, out of hbarcat's post, that's the one thing I would take issue with, too. Carol is a serious jazz musician, and I highly doubt any of us put together could outplay her on any style of music. Just because she stopped doing sessions in the early 70's doesn't mean she stopped playing.
Jimmy,
Agree with you on her playing credentials. But, Carol did not stop doing sessons in the 70s. There's her fine jazz CD Thumbs Up and, apparently, a lot of current sesson work, including sound tracks. Check out myspace sometime and do a search. There's a current rock/pop where she is listed as sesson player. Stopped playing? I heard through the grapevine that's she's busy playing out all the time with her trio and doing many other gigs in the desert area. in So California.
- Status
