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The Great Carol Kaye

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#181
Richard Lindsey said:
.....player and educator while still being closed-minded. For example, Louis Armstrong, one of the most important, if not the single most important, figures in the history of jazz, dismissed bebop as being "Chinese music." He was still great, but also closed-minded. I'm not putting CK in Armstrong's class, obviously, but the principle is the same.

So no, the fact that people have problems with CK has IMO absolutely nothing to do with her ability to play.
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+1

And, if there is a perception of Carol being closed minded by many people, I really think the roots of that come from her pure intent to keep the chordal approach to jazz, that she learned mostly on the bandstand in the 40's and 50's alive and well and to make this available to others in a world that does not readily gravitate to that approach.

I don't think there is anyone else around who is exactly doing that, and I can totally respect that. Her materials have have helped me and many others immensely to be a better player and I use some of her ideas with my students with success.

Maybe when you are putting out a product that runs counter to what others are teaching and you feel, in your bones, that it is wrong and that budding jazz players are being given educational materials that are unnecessarily difficult and useless and that these materials are being taught by people who, in no way, approach Carol's jazz background, you may get very annoyed. But this is because she cares about being of help to others.

Its like passing the donut shop everyday on the way to work and being tempted by a fast fix of sugar and latte's, but smiling inside because you have something solid for breakfast already that's going to be much more valuable in the long run, and better for you.

Carol has never claimed this to be an approach she invented, it is an approach she learned, and I can totally respect her wanting to get her educational materials out to those really wanting to delve into the thinking and learning approaches of many of those straight ahead jazz folks that got jazz going.
 
#182
jgbass said:
+1

And, if there is a perception of Carol being closed minded by many people, I really think the roots of that come from her pure intent to keep the chordal approach to jazz, that she learned mostly on the bandstand in the 40's and 50's alive and well and to make this available to others in a world that does not readily gravitate to that approach.
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"Making that approach available" is not what people object to. It's the way she seems to think it's the only way, and the manner in which she seems to dismiss any approach other than hers, often with a highly inappropriate and counterproductive degree of anger and contempt. IMO it's not just a "perception." Seemingly she really is closed-minded. And it's not a good thing. Part of the point of my little remark about Armstrong is that Armstrong was, not to put too fine a point on it, wrong. Doesn't mean that CK can't play or that her educational materials have no value. It does mean IMO that she's not quite all that, and that she gives people perfectly good reasons to be ticked off with her.

So by all means defend the things about CK that are worth defending, and praise the things that are worth praising, but allow people their reasonable upset about the things that AREN'T worth defending or praising. Their experiences with CK are every bit as valid as yours and should no more be swept under the rug than yours should.
 
#184
BassLand said:
That is PURE speculation on your part (you have no idea whom on this forum you are talking about with that statement). You also must know that she would never show up at a place where she might be able to prove her present ability without claims of what she did 40 plus years ago, which makes you statement baseless.

I can tell you this! She is a player who trades on the fact that she is female to garner sympathy and support for just being around a long time. The more important question to me when facing someone like yourself making these statements in her stead is where do you think you fit in as a player. Until YOU live up to certain expectations regarding YOUR quality as a player worthy of such consideration, your words and claims are as empty as some of hers. You can go to several places on the net to hear me play what about YOU?

She is not a better player than I am (just different) no matter how many times she (or you) says so, how many records she did (or how many she may have claimed to do that she probably did not in fact do). Possible 40 years ago (when the knowledge of TODAY'S HISTORY was unavailable) she might have gotten away with but now now, today.

I am not claiming to be "better" than any other player. But I am also not ready to sit and be bullied by some one who think's they are. Especially when in my eyes, they don't deserve it.

The only place where she can get away with some of the outrageous claims/statements of Carol Kaye factoids she makes is with the young or those who don't know any better on her own heavily moderated website. In the real world outside of her site all she can does is bitch and moan about how her way to play/teach/record is better than anyone elses and/or encourage those of you who have come out into the real world to do her bidding for her.

She will always find great resistance to her wild statements, claims and accusations from those individuals (in the real world) who sensibly resist the notions that she supports.

These facts have put whatever stature she should have attained for JUST being around to be considered 2nd place next to her IMO uncouth attitude.

Why isn't she in the rock and roll Hall of Fame? Her two close buddies Earl Palmer and Hal Blaine got in on the first ballot with Jamerson 7 years ago and she is still not there. That alone should tell you something.

I do not plan to debate this issue any further because I know you will never respond to the points I have made here. You will only see some small part of this post you think you can defend to make the discussion go your way. There will be talk on your part of misogyny (spelling?) idle defense of your hero and anything but the music and I chose not to follow you up on those talking points so have at it my young friend.

Have a good Sunday!
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You too, Mr. Lee
 
#185
BassLand said:
That is PURE speculation on your part (you have no idea whom on this forum you are talking about with that statement). You also must know that she would never show up at a place where she might be able to prove her present ability without claims of what she did 40 plus years ago, which makes you statement baseless.

I can tell you this! She is a player who trades on the fact that she is female to garner sympathy and support for just being around a long time.
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I don't think Carol has to show up anywhere to prove her present ability. And, if I had a 40 year plus history of musical success, I would be happy to talk about it. My band buddies often talk about their experiences of many years ago, and I enjoy hearing about it. From what I understand, she is an active, thriving, busy, gigging player on both electric bass and guitar, as well as continuing on with her educational activities.

In the years I was involved with her forum, and when I took private lessons, I never, ever got any hint of anything that would point to her being a "female garnering sympathy". Carol has consistently stated that she is a musician, and does not like the definition of female musician and is certainly not one looking for sympathy.
 
#188
BassLand said:
Why should she show up when she has you...
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What? :confused: Cannot even begin to understand the intent of this comment. Sounds like a mixture of sarcasm, rudeness, a personal dig, immaturity, anger, disrespect, and abuse. But, not worthy of my time, and I doubt anyone coming here to view this thread would be interested in this kind of stuff.

The author/moderator of this thread has asked several times to keep on track with the intent of this thread: This is the thread where we praise Carol Kaye for the work she did. Let's show some respect for everyone here!
 
#189
jgbass said:
What? :confused: Cannot even begin to understand the intent of this comment. Sounds like a mixture of sarcasm, rudeness, a personal dig, immaturity, anger, disrespect, and abuse. But, not worthy of my time, and I doubt anyone coming here to view this thread would be interested in this kind of stuff.

The author/moderator of this thread has asked several times to keep on track with the intent of this thread: This is the thread where we praise Carol Kaye for the work she did. Let's show some respect for everyone here!
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I met a bass teacher last week who was a big fan of Carol Kaye materials because he studied with her which led to talk about Carol. wisely we avoid the whole who did what issue. The conversation boiled down to what this thread shows people tend to fall into two categories they love her or can't stand her. The guy I was talking said Carol does rub a lot of people the wrong way and as she gets older it is happening more. So I say pick the camp you're in, realize your not going to change the other camp's view. Time to get back and enjoy what ever music you listen to.
 
#190
Gee...

By her long list of accomplishments I thought Carol Kaye should be my hero, but from this thread it sounds like she's a super diva. Let her be, I guess. Like SlackDaddy says, don't push her buttons, but I'm sure there is still a great deal she could teach each of us. And with that in mind, I would be grateful for the chance to hear her speak.
 
#191
maryhyphenbeth said:
Like SlackDaddy says, don't push her buttons, but I'm sure there is still a great deal she could teach each of us.
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I've followed the 'Carol Kaye Controversy' for many years now and I think one of the major issues is that people never know what statements will *push her buttons*. A god example would be a few years ago the only "right" bass was an American-made one, as anything else could "never live up to a Fender" both in construction as well as ease of srecording (paraphrased). A few years later Carol's endorsing Ibanez basses and semi-hollow Jazz guitars and everything's hunky-dory. :rolleyes:

I have no doubt that Ms. Kaye would have a great deal to teach me, but the deciding factor in my case is respect: by all accounts she demands it from her students and people on her message board, as shown by her tossing people by the wayside simply due to their *GASP* questioning a method of her teaching or bringing up the factual issues concerning the historical inaccuracies in what she's written/posted/spoken off throughout the years concerning her sessions, how it's been addressed by others, and her refusal to address these issues... yet it's been shown that she gives very little respect in return as shown by the aforementioned "tossing" people off her website simply because they have a different viewpoint than hers and frankly nonsensical issues such as where your instrumental was built or type/changing of strings - lets all remember she couldn't be bothered to change or have her strings changed back in the day and would simply throw the bass away and purchase a new one. :eek:

My ultimate point is that I've never take lessons from someone who doesn't have a modicum of respect for me and my playing as their student, and by all accounts Carol fits into that paradigm. It's truly a shame that a player of her historical significance has had such importance severely reduced by her actions and multitude of comments over the years. :rollno:
 
#192
I hope I am not to late but guess what, I got kicked off of Carol Kaye's website today ! Am I upset, NO. I mentioned Tommy Cogbill (being one of my favorite electric bass players)and Mike Leech and got a nasty email from her saying I was breaking the forum rules. I just joined her forum to see if she was still talking about her Motown days and she was. I was done with it anyway, so I asked the big question "Can you prove you played on the Motown hits in question" ? I went to see if she had replied and could not get on the forum. Carol Kaye is a great Bass legend with alot of hits to her credit but her pop Bass "guitar" playing has never done much for me.
 
#193
david fitch said:
I got kicked off of Carol Kaye's website today !
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Welcome to the club. I got kicked out of Carol's forum following a question about the chordal scale. I told her that prior to vising her forum; in my experience, I had never heard of a chordal scale. I was merely asking for clarity.

I was not debating. I was not being rude; in fact, my tone was highly respectful. I had pending orders for some of her teaching materials.

Next time I tried to log in, I was blocked. I was worried that she wouldn't fill the order I made for a book/CD I ordered. Long story short; I got the book/CD, but I haven't been to her forum since.

I was really disappointed. I enjoyed reading the forums and I'm not a person that minds how strongly she expresses her views.

Anyhow, I got over it.

Joe
 
#194
Bassist4life, Carol Kaye is an interesting woman and I do respect her Bass work for what it is. Her forum is very strange, If members want to remain on her forum they better be very carefull of what they post. The wierd thing is the ones that do post say they play Ibanez Basses and Thomastik Flatwound Bass Strings,just like her(not that I feel there is anything wrong with Ibanez or Thomastik,I just found that strange). I really feel if you wish to stay on her forum you must worship her and that is not going to happen with me ! I mentioned a Bass player that did some tracks that she claims she played on and it set her off ! I really feel this woman did not quit studio work on her own terms, I feel she could not change her style to fit the new Bass trends in L.A. in the middle 1970's set by players like Larry Graham. Believe me it did not break my heart when she "kicked me off" of her forum I knew she would when she found out I would not bow down to her. Dave
 
#195
I feel bad for Carol. She has no idea that she's her own worst enemy. She has so much to give, but every time she has a chance to give, it has to be completely on her own terms and you're an idiot if you disagree with anything. Hey, God bless her. She did a lot and nobody will ever do anything like she did again. I hope she has a wonderful old age.
 
#196
My impression of her forum is that members are not supposed to make posts. I noticed that many of the members in her forum had a zero post count. It's possible that she requires membership to keep the Carol haters out; however, she doesn't want members to interrupt her posts. IMO.

Joe
 
#197
Bassist4life,I think you are right on with that. Carol Kaye post long drawn out post that go on and on about the same old things. What was really got old was her post on Motown and how they did about 40% of recording in Los Angeles in the 1960's.She still claims it is her playing Bass on "I was made to love her" and many other Motown hits......JimmyM, I think you are right also,she does seem to be her own worst enemy.Too bad she is so bitter,if she humbled herself she would have alot of interesting stories to tell,Take Care,Dave
 
#198
Sorry to hear Carol's forum has apparently turned into a place where most do not post. Does not sound inviting at all anymore. I was a member of her forum for years, until I was kicked off, and I looked forward every morning to what was posted. It was truly an education in playing techniques, jazz history and personalities, a "how to" for what to listen to and clarification of information in her tutors. A total education. Carol also had many interesting stories about her musical experiences and gave much insight into the workings of the music business.

About 2-3 years ago, I wrote PMs to someone who used to be active at TB about my experiences of being dumped from private lessons, just trying to make sense of this. It really was very painful at the time. This person was very supportive of my trials, but the tune changed. The last PM I wrote was apparently forwarded to Carol and everything hit the fan. I was called names on the forum, it was erroneously determined that I was bothering and emailing lots of forum people all over the internet, when, in fact, there was one PM to one person that could have been construed as somewhat negative and in all those years, I only emailed two people, both who welcomed my mail and responded. As a result, the forum became members only because of this fictional thing I did, and I think it ceased to be an inviting place. The open forum had its share of strange posts and negativity as well, but many were quickly deleted.

Its just too bad, because Carol has so much to offer those who are learning and taking off on their music careers, whether full-time, part-time, whatever, and I will be forever grateful for what I learned. It is really, in part, being one's worst own enemy. But, as a fledling teacher, I cannot really teach fully what she offers, because I am also banned from ordering her tutors, and I don't want to get into this with any students.

None of this really makes much sense after all this time, but recently I did send Carol an email of appreciation for what I have learned from her and expressed being apologetic for what went wrong. Was a closure on this long, difficult situation that will never make a lot of sense to me.
 
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