The Great Carol Kaye

[jgbass]

BassLand,

Correct! A good musician should be considered a good musician period. In my world, I have to say this is true, with the musicians I play music with, and also with the overwhelming majority of people I interact with, or have been involved in musicial situations in the past.

But, in the world as it is, I cannot deny that I have experienced a few incidents. I am old enough to have grown up in a world where girls only played the flute and clarinet, and I think things are better today. Nothing wrong with the flute and clarinet either, but, at that time, I wanted to play drums. People are not always used to seeing a female bass player in stage, but I assign no value of any negatively to this. I think they are just curious and then decide, that's cool, or whatever.

One specific incident was the guitarist in a past jazz band that barely tolerated me and the leader said that he could not stand female musicians. He didn't stick around long either and the leader wouldn't stand for that anyway. There were a few scattered incidents like that in the decades I have played music. Just real world reality, but few and far between.

All in all, I would say my musical experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. As I stated before in another way, being a musician is the norm of my being and it has always been so silly to assign gender to it but there are a few who still do.

 

[BassLand]

JGBass,

I was married to a wonderful woman for 33 years (She passed away last year). I have 3 wonderful daughters whom I am very proud of (as I am of my son also). I have 10 granddaughters and 3 Grand sons so I have no place in my heart for that kinda gender crap.

I also want them to do great things and be known for doing what they say they do and not trying to take anybody else's thunder.

[recording content] Sometime in the near future I want to record my youngest grandson playing his drums :-D

 

[jgbass]

BassLand,

My belated condolences regarding your wife. So sorry.

I think its great that you want to record your grandson. Be sure to post it here on TB too!! And, I hope they all do great things in their lifetime.

I work with kids during the day and many I work with are so lacking in good role models, goals, and aspirations for the future. Most are absolute musical illerates too and seem to lack some kind of core of integrity within themselves. Sounds like you are doing good things,

 

[Big nebula]

I think this thread about Kay has run it's course.Come on Carol,submit a tasty bass solo on Youtube or Myspace and make me change my mind.

 

[lowerclef]

I'm hearing a lot of hurt feelings going around on this thread. She was mean to you guys on her forum, so now we're going to write screed after screed about how she isn't talented, she was never a jazz musician, she's just using guitar technique on bass (which is probably why Anthony Jackson sucks so much ), she needs to have a beer poured on her head, she's an old washed-up bitch and it will be great when she dies so we don't have to listen to her big fat mouth anymore, etc. etc.

Come on guys, show some class. Go somewhere and nurse your wounds.

I took private lessons from Carol, and yes, I was also slammed on her forum a couple of times for asking innocent questions. But you know what? She changed my musical life forever. Carol IS a jazz musician, it's her biggest passion, and her knowledge of jazz theory is intense, to say the least. I learned more from her in a few lessons than my entire Berklee education. She completely changed the way I hear and think about music. Her materials and private lessons are inexpensive, and you get so much for what you pay for.

And in her seventies, she RIPS on guitar and bass. Her tone is huge. For those of you who think she can't play, undeceive yourselves: you are seriously mistaken. She is the real deal.

She is an amazing teacher. She was totally focused on me and making me a better player. It was never about her asking, "Okay, so what do you want to learn today?" like many other teachers, nor was it about talking about her legacy. She is all about TEACHING people. She also goes with her students out to jazz clubs to give real-time analysis of what's going on. Pretty cool.

As for the Motown thing, I really don't have a dog in that hunt. We all know Carol gets wrapped up in controversy for things she says because she doesn't hold her tongue, but she is a very sincere and sweet person. Tracks like IWMTLH and Bernadette sound like Jamerson to me, but his legacy is so firmly cemented at this point that it doesn't really matter. In fact, both their legacies are. I think Carol really BELIEVES she played on those whether she did or not. She certainly CAN play them - I saw her do it at a demonstration once, so it's not an issue of talent. But how many of us could retain perfectly accurate records (or memories) of our studio dates after several thousand sessions?

If only we were all so lucky.

 

[Big nebula]

"I took private lessons from Carol, and yes, I was also slammed on her forum a couple of times for asking innocent questions"

The woman has no people skills.
Billy Sheehan and Victor Wooten for example are great bassist who can send Kay home any day of the week,but they also have the advantage of being nice people.Nuff said on Kay.

 

[Lazylion]

The Unabomber had a manifesto also.
Carol did some great groundbreaking work.

LOL Carol Kaye and the Unabomber all in one post! I love this place! Do we cover some ground or what!

 

[ryco]

Also, I read this on another site, did she diss them or what?
"Kaye theorizes that it was precisely their inferior reading skills that forced session players Glen Campbell and Leon Russell to become pop stars instead."

hahaha! GREAT quote!!

I played through all of her Bass Book series back in the 70's. And Valda Hammick.

I love her stuff with The Wrecking Crew. Hey, if she was good enough for Wilson and Blaine, she's cool in my book

 

[jgbass]

I'm hearing a lot of hurt feelings going around on this thread. She was mean to you guys on her forum, so now we're going to write screed after screed about how she isn't talented, she was never a jazz musician, she's just using guitar technique on bass (which is probably why Anthony Jackson sucks so much ), she needs to have a beer poured on her head, she's an old washed-up bitch and it will be great when she dies so we don't have to listen to her big fat mouth anymore, etc. etc.

Come on guys, show some class. Go somewhere and nurse your wounds.

I took private lessons from Carol, and yes, I was also slammed on her forum a couple of times for asking innocent questions. But you know what? She changed my musical life forever. Carol IS a jazz musician, it's her biggest passion, and her knowledge of jazz theory is intense, to say the least. I learned more from her in a few lessons than my entire Berklee education. She completely changed the way I hear and think about music. Her materials and private lessons are inexpensive, and you get so much for what you pay for.

She is all about TEACHING people. She also goes with her students out to jazz clubs to give real-time analysis of what's going on. Pretty cool.

But how many of us could retain perfectly accurate records (or memories) of our studio dates after several thousand sessions?

If only we were all so lucky.

Lowerclef,

That's why TB really needs a Carol Kaye appreciation thread. So many times I have thought of starting one, and I knew all this controvery pour a beer on her head stuff would surface.

I took 8 lessons from Carol. They were the best, focused lessons I ever took. And, we did a trip to a jazz club for analysis too. She was completely generous with her time. Carol totally cares deeply about education, especially jazz education, because her forte is really jazz. Carol would like to be known as a jazz player and educator in my opinion. I still have the tapes of those lessons and they are a model for my teaching of others. Like any good teacher, she presents what she thinks you need to learn. Focused, with a plan. Me...I was dumped from lessons though. Took me a long time to get over that, I was so hurt about that, but I try to make the best of any situation. Just because I was dumped doesn't warrant this black and white thinking about any personality. I will never totally understand why I was dumped, will never totally understand Carol, it really was an innocent silly comment that she took are something else. It was hard personal times for her when I was studying with her anyway, so maybe that played into it. I also, was on the forum for years. What an education I received.

What happened between Carol and me is history. If I have a problem with someone, I seek understanding, try to work it out with the person, try to see what part I played in it, and get over it, not carry it around for years and years staying as freshly mad and hurt as yesterday. There are two sides to any story, about something.

If you are someone who spends your life being angry and holding on the grudges, why do you need to repeat and repeat and repeat it here. That's what I am tired of.

So, how about three threads:

1. The Carol Kaye Appreciation Thread
2. The I Hate Carol Kaye Because of What She Did To Me
and I'm Still Mad Thread
3. And, I suppose, yet another Jamerson vs. Carol to
talk of Carol's so-called vile liar pathology at possibly not
remembering all the details of the thousands of songs she
recorded.

Get Over It. It will do you a lot of good. Show your maturity.

 

[Bass Boy]

I am a big fan of film and TV scores. I am also a big Planet of the Apes fan. I have a recording of some music from Escape from the Planet of the Apes that just kills. Some groovy odd time sig music. I always thought it was Carol playing on it. I read a Bass Player magazine a while back with Mike Merritt and he mentioned he was digging this recording and it was Carol on bass! Worth a listen.

 

[BassLand]

"3. And, I suppose, yet another Jamerson vs. Carol to
talk of Carol's so-called vile liar pathology at possibly not
remembering all the details of the thousands of songs she
recorded. "


I feel in some way that last post was directed at me, so I will respond. How about a thread where some "deer in the headlights" doesn't start that tired old "Kaye played on Bernadette or IWMTLH Motown released recordings etc..." stuff so we can all rest.

When I hear you say how good Kaye was with you is it supposed to cancel out all the times she is a (You Fill In The Blank, you seem to be good at it)? Besides she only deserves one thread, Every body does not feel as benevolent about her as you do. Now, you can get over it.

You promised the last word some time ago and then somehow you keep coming back to this thread trying to paint this pretty picture of a not so pretty situation, Why?

You tried the old Woman hater crap, that did not work. Then you start with how nice she is and how she doesn't lie. using words like trustworthy What is your next move?

A question for you, Are you a wannabe in her book? I hear that word a lot coming out of her regarding most musicians she comes in contact with. They are just wannabe or some other silly names.

What would make me me feel better? A few things come to mind in no particular order.

1) a certain california bassist stop claiming other people's basswork as their own and stop low rating people who put them in check for it.

2) world peace.

 

[BassLand]

Disclaimer! Just for the record, I had nothing to do with the "beer over the head" remark or names called regarding the Kaye issue. If I were to do that it would cheapen the valid points regarding her claims. It is All about the MUSIC.

Also, Anthony Jackson does also play with his fingers so he does not exclusively use guitar technique for playing bass. It is an effect that he sometimes uses not the only game in town. Kaye only uses guitar technique to play bass.

 

[jgbass]

BassLand,



If you want the last word, you've got it. I don't have any need to defend my position or who I am. I have already stated it.

Peace, and my appreciation for Carol Kaye's vast contribution to electric bass as a musician and fine educator. Hope we can do a real appreciation thread here at TB sometime soon.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Also, Anthony Jackson does also play with his fingers so he does not exclusively use guitar technique for playing bass. It is an effect that he sometimes uses not the only game in town. Kaye only uses guitar technique to play bass.

Fingerstyle IS guitar technique too, so that's not really a valid distinction. (Ask any classical or flamenco guitarist, and many folk guitarists.) Plus, there's no reason to assume that pick is not a perfectly natural and idiomatic technique for playing a bass guitar and that it is somehow not "bass technique." (Ask Steve Swallow.)

Whatever valid points there may be in all this (and believe me, I'm not pro-Kaye in the Motown argument AT ALL), arguing about "guitar technique" versus "bass technique" seems kind of irrelevant and a waste of time to me--speaking as someone who's played both for a number of years. It has nothing to do with the music or with the quality of what Kaye did or didn't do.

 

[BassLand]

According to you there is no bass technique it is all guitar technique??? Oooooooooook whatever.

My statement (not argument) still stands. Kaye uses a pick all the time, which I consider to be guitar technique when it is applied by a guitarist (which she is). And Anthony Jackson uses a pick occasionally for effect (with great results I might add) while using traditional (except for upright being bowed) bass technique for the right hand most of the time. An added thought, Jackson is a Jamerson protege and has played his lines to perfection while not taking credit for even one of them...

 

[Munjibunga]

>>> You and me both. Carol is a 100% certifiable nut job. If she keeps it up, someone's gonna end up pouring a beer over her head at the NAMM show. Her attitude stinks. So pathetic. I almost feel sorry for her.

C'mon now, people ... she's OLD!

 

[Munjibunga]

OK, folks, let's summarize the thread.

1. Carol Kaye is a bass icon who played on hundreds of hit records.

2. Carol Kaye is crotchety.

I think that pretty much wraps up everything that's been said here, with the possible exception of BassLand's wild hare (or is it hair?).

 

[Richard Lindsey]

According to you there is no bass technique it is all guitar technique??? Oooooooooook whatever.

My statement (not argument) still stands. Kaye uses a pick all the time, which I consider to be guitar technique when it is applied by a guitarist (which she is). And Anthony Jackson uses a pick occasionally for effect (with great results I might add) while using traditional (except for upright being bowed) bass technique for the right hand most of the time. An added thought, Jackson is a Jamerson protege and has played his lines to perfection while not taking credit for even one of them...

Yes, actually pick playing and basic fingerstyle playing are all guitar technique, which is not surprising since the electric bass is a bass guitar. That is, if you care to define technique that way, which I generally don't. And it's not really arguable, it's a matter of verifiable fact. The rest stroke used by most fingerstyle bassists is very close to the rest stroke used by classical guitarists. It actually resembles that stroke more than the stroke used by upright bassists, which is more with the side of the finger a lot of the time.

There are specific bass techniques, such as slapping and tapping, but basic fingerstyle isn't one of them.

The argument about Kaye's picking being guitar technique when applied by a guitarist makes no sense. First, the technique is what it is, regardless of who's using it; what it is doesn't depend on who's playing it. Second, Kaye, judging by her life's work, is as much a bassist as she is a guitarist. Like it or not, one can be both a guitarist and a bassist. This is provable: she proved it by doing it.

I know Jackson is a Jamerson protege. But that doesn't have anything to do with the question of guitar versus bass technique. Which, as I said, is a nonissue anyway, or should be.

 

[shwashwa]

According to you there is no bass technique it is all guitar technique??? Oooooooooook whatever.

QUOTE]


they're both guitars. one is just tuned lower. bass GUITAR, therefore technique will be similar or the same. i'm a bass player, and as far as i'm concerned, it's a guitar, although it may serve a diferent function in a band than a 6 string guitar. i feel that it has more in common with a guitar than with the upright bass from which it was derived. when you think about it, people were playing double bass arco for centuries before someone tried it in a jazz group primarily as a pizz instrument. when you think about it that way, in terms of length of time, the bass guitar as nothing in common with the function of an upright bass other than 4 strings of the same pitch... i tell people that when i made the switch from electric to upright, the similarities were so few that i may as well have been taking up saxaphone. upright bass belongs to the violin family, and bass guitar belongs to the guitar family hence "guitar" technique (you can argue that they both belong to the lute family)... aside from the 2 extra strings which would yeild more chordal playing, for me, guitar is to bass guitar, as violin is to viola, or cello to bass, or alto to tenor, etc.

let the flames begin.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

OK, folks, let's summarize the thread.

1. Carol Kaye is a bass icon who played on hundreds of hit records.

2. Carol Kaye is crotchety.

I think that pretty much wraps up everything that's been said here

No, not quite. There's also the issue of claiming credit for somebody else's work. Which is an issue that BassLand didn't invent, and which I personally think he's right about. However, it doesn't take away from the large body of non-Jamerson work for which Kaye's contribution is certain.