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The Great Carol Kaye

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#121
Brady Bunch theme - that's her, and one of my CK faves. I also really dug her Beach Boys stuff.

Carol Kaye really is an historically important player and a fine educator, but we all remember the negatives instead of the positives, myself included. I introduced myself to her years ago as a young player, and she was pleased to be recognized and very cordial.
 
#122
BassLand said:
What those studio logs and check stubs fail to identify are dates and song titles. To my knowlege she has never shown the actual pages of her logs. We don't know if they were done 40 years ago or yesterday (given the nature of her claims, it is suspect).

There is a logical answer for every assertion that she's made. I (nor anybody I can think of) NEVER said she did NOT work for Motown but the recordings she actually did for Motown are a far cry from the songs claimed in this dipute.

She continually injects racism and gender bias into this debate where there was never any mention on the part of her detractors of her race or her gender. They have no part in this controversy. If I had a 5 dollars for every time she's has called me a mysoginist (Female hater) I could fill my tank (What can I tell you gas is exspensive...), or said that I can't play well (I made many video/audio examples of my playing available on the web to quell that notion).

She is not known for innovative playing like Jamerson (the father of modern bass playing) which makes the claim to his work more self serving than anything else IMO. She is much more recognized as a mother rather than the mother of electric bass playing. She is a guitarist who uses gutar technique for playing bass. Nothing innovatiive there. I have an idea, If you have the ability, please transcribe the most innovative bassline (aside from recordings in this controversy) that CK has done. I will do the same for an obscure Jamerson recording. Then we cam compare. Since you think so much of her innovation lets see that in black and white (read: ink & paper) and compare.

She still (after 7 years) has not made it to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame which I believe would have happened long ago if the work she actually did was as important as the false claims (for what ever reason) that have been made. Jamerson (an drinker in excess, and not a nice person by some accounts) was on the first ballot for sideman induction and if her work were that important in spite of the claims made she surely should have been inducted. So it would seem that I am not the only one who is swayed negatively by things she says.

Why didn't RNR HOF NOT induct Jamerson because of his personal problems? The answer is the MUSIC and that is where Ms. Kaye seems to fall short. The obvious comparison between the two individuals makes her come up short while the music transcends all of Jamerson's personal problems during his lifetime.

Will Ms Kaye eventually make it to the RNR HOF? I don't know the answer to that but, if your contention of the importance of her verifiable recordings is any barometer, then it seems logical that it should have been done long ago. Possibly along side of or before Jamerson. Yet, she is not there (consider her studio drummer partners have been inducted years ago Palmer and Blaine). How do you quantify/qualify those facts?

To me, you represent the latest appologist for Ms Kaye's apparent shortcomings with regard to both her playing and her personal choices regarding claims.
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This is so perfectly on point. James Jamerson was one of the main architects of an entire musical movement. Carol Kaye was simply a bricklayer.

Slug
 
#125
Blackbird said:
So here it is, the thread where we praise Carol Kaye for the work she did. Besides Pet Sounds, She also played on Richie Valens' La Bamba and of course, thousands of Phil Spector sessions.

Here's a recent project of hers: A live trio recording with a guitarist and a flute/sax player. Just a cozy trio blowing through standards and a few originals. Carol even picks up the guitar on one track.

ThumbsUp130.gif


So, favorite Kaye basslines/recordings, anyone?
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Remaining true, in respect to the thread starter of this, it amazes me that this has so denigrated to almost an exercise in hate by some individuals here, including a post or two that had to be deleted, one sounding almost like a death wish.

As an individual who was banned by Carol Kaye, I would say that I have truly gotten over and gotten past it, took a look at how I contributed to this, and what remains is my appreciation for this true pioneer of music and her influence, as one of many, on my growth as a musician.

I feel sorry for some of your here and your years and years of negatively on this site. I think some of you truly need to get over it. Are you going to carry this anger all your life and post all this vermin here this forever? This was supposed to be an appreciation thread. And what's with you Basslands? You can't stand her but spend your time as a troll on her site?

Really, I always wondered is it because she's a woman who speaks her mind? I'm a musician who happens to be female and its not totally friendly out there. And, it certainly is a tough road to travel, especially if you started at this many decades ago as she did. I past I started decades ago, though not as many. There are people who flat out don't like female musicians. Thats a fact. I know who they are in my life. Are you one of them? I'm talking about real musicians, not just pretty girls to look it who may be more what I call entertainers.

What I know about Carol is that she has never, ever stated she wants to be defined as a "woman musician", she wants to be defined as a musician. Period. I get it. And hats off to someone who, in her 70's, is playing up a storm, recording, educating and doing well. Music is so natural to me, I don't even think about gender but others do, so I have to live with that, and I know who respects me for what I do and who does not and who has issues with my being a female bass player. I've heard it all. Do we discuss the personalities of other musicians here in such detail? No, so why this over and over and over again. If we did, I think there would be a lot of dirt to discuss that wouldn't even come close to people's experiences with Carol. Get past the person, if you need to, and appreciate the music.

I think this thread needs to be ended soon. It has gotten so far off its original intent.
 
#126
JGBass,

As someone who has been in receipt of the vitriolic side of Ms Kaye, I'll bet you wonder what she has said about you. So do I and I go to see first hand what drivel comes from kaye.com land. So apparently do most of the people who visit her site. Most do not post (maybe for a different reason than me but none the less). Are they "trolls" too?

It looks as though you have joined her army of "It's because she is a woman" group that mostly have become apologists for her... Her gender (nor yours) has anything to do with the issues she raises ("I did this or that"). Then she fails to come to her own defense anywhere but her site which, she rules like a monarchy relying on the mostly miss informed or those too young to remember the events which make up the issue. Which group are you in JGBass? No one else has a right to say anything that she would not agree with. Thank God the rest of the internet is not run that way.

The thread will end when it ends but it will always be in the archives and I have to disagree, it is right on topic having to do with her alleged recordings, her popularity (or lack thereof in certain quarters).

If you want to continue to be respected as you speak about in your post then I suspect you should not claim what has been done by others as your own.

It has always been frowned upon in the music community to commit Plagiarism. Carol would not be the first nor the last to come up against that brick wall.

After Blackbird saw the thread going in a direction that pointed out some of CK's issues he decided to narrow the topic to suit his own agenda. Most did ignore his attempt to silence them here like his idol CK would do on her own site. I remind you that as long as the thread addresses recording claims that CK makes (to this day she has not let up on the subject) then I feel it is on topic OK? Again, get over it.

BTW it is BassLand not bassland"s".
 
#127
BassLand said:
I thought about the part in the last post that infers that this topic will never go away and I had this revelation. In this "recordings" section of TB there is a "sticky" for Jamerson talking about his recordings. Some one comes in and says CK did IWMTLH and then the snowbball effect. First thig you know there is a CK thread (and believe me that is OK) and some one says CK Motown recordings and though it doesnt get very specific anymore as to saying which tunes we all have heard it before so we (think) we know that this someone is talking about Bernadette or IWMTLH. It is automatic the snow balls are coming fast and furious now LOL

One could say that there is no more controversy if you just look at the evidence and listen to the music. This notion of Jamerson coming in copying CK's line for Bernadette, IWMTLH or ANY tune is got to be the most asinine suggestions in the world. Think about it. Go listen to her bass only tracks at her website (these are "recordings" arent they? on topic...) then go listen to the Beach Boys "recording" of IWMTLH recorded the same year as Stevie's version.

The one she did on her site sounds more like "the notes" than the "recording" she did the very same year as Jamerson's Stevie Wonder "recording". After 30 years of listening to Jamerson she may have it down pretty good except for the pick sound which can clearly be heard on both her 1967 BB recording and the one on her site. Jamerson's version sounds very different. She may get the notes but she will never get Jamerson's feel. Especially in 1967.

I'm out see Ya'll at the next meeting... I gotta go play some bass...
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*** is IWMTLH?
 
#129
I just hate to type and any excuse not to do so is exploited by me. [Recordings content] Regarding IWMTLH, there are two versions one by Stevie Wonder and the other by the Beach Boys from the same year I believe. We know the BB version is Carol Kaye. Listen to it and how different it is from the Stevie Wonder Version.
 
#130
DocBop said:
I Was Made To Love Her

Guess it gets talked about by some so much they had to create an acronym to avoid carpal tunnel syndrome typing it in all the time.
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Again and again and again.

By the way, I have not joined any camp regarding Carol Kaye. Nor have a joined the women's camp either. I don't do camps anymore. Impossible, since the groups I play music in are comprised of men and gender is not an issue with these guys, neither is it for me. The only reason I brought gender up is that I suspect it is something that plays into this ongoing things that goes on TB about Carol. I just cannot imagine any man being discussed with such derision and misogyny. Correct me if I am wrong.

I am perfectly capable of thinking for mysel, have given this a lot of thought and have drawn my own conclusions. I respect Carol for her contributions to the music world, for her teaching methods, for all I learned for the years I was part of her forum, I do not currently communicate with her nor read her forum. Neither do I expect anyone to be perfect in this imperfect world in their interactions with others. Ever work in an office? Drive on a freeway? Ever been around people? Do you like their interactions all the time, or are they always satisfactory to you? If they do something you don't like, do you go on boards and diss them for years? Whatever. Not very respectful in my opinion.

On this issue of tunes, Carol has her own valid point of view, sincerely believes her own point of view, has 3 manifestos to back it up, so respect it for heavens sakes. I can respect other points of view as well. I really try to understand another's point of view. I'm really trying to understand all this seeming hatred going on here, why these few songs are such a focus for a few here, and how long this has been going on. I personally don't get it. But, that's me.

You will never know the facts for certainly about these tunes. A hundred people observe an auto accident, and they all have their own perspective. They all believe their perspective is true. Don't assume Carol is a vicious liar. That's not what I know of Carol and I consider her a trustworthy person, despite any conflicts I have had with her and I have known her as someone who tells the truth and wants to remain pure to teaching and playing the tradition of jazz she was brought up on.

A good proportion of the people posting here are saying: let it rest. I am not going to endlessly debate my position and defend myself. I just don't have the time. I came to this thread because it was an appreciation thread. If someone is dissenting me, why add fuel to the fire anyway? That only makes it worse. This is it, for me, take it or leave it. That's my last word.
 
#132
BTW, I was wondering what part of "her gender has nothing to do with her issues" doesn't she understand? You can write something in black and white and still people will read into it what they want. Since she mentioned the 3 manifestos Kaye puts on her site she must have still been trying to defend Kaye's saying she did all the stuff. That is what the manifesto touts. Her version of the events. How does that stack up to the many who state she had nothing to do with the songs she claims but now I remember JGBass doesn't care about that. It doesn't fit JG's agenda. So be it
 
#133
jgbass said:
I just cannot imagine any man being discussed with such derision and misogyny. Correct me if I am wrong.
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You are wrong. Except the misogyny part of course, I don't think by definition you can discuss a man that way...

But if any man made the outrageous claims that Carol has, trying to steal the credit from someone else for some of the best work ever created on the instrument, they would be discussed with exactly the same derision. I guarantee it.
jgbass said:
On this issue of tunes, Carol has her own valid point of view, sincerely believes her own point of view, has 3 manifestos to back it up, so respect it for heavens sakes.
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The Unabomber had a manifesto also. So do lots of other kooks and liars. Does that mean we need to respect that as well?

Carol did some great groundbreaking work. But unfortunately it's my opinion that she's a nut job. And that has nothing to do with gender.
 
#134
I really do have a problem with taking the easy way out and suggesting in the face of all the evidence that the only reason Carol is being ragged on is because she was a woman or that what she said must be true because she said it. No one else could possibly know what went on. In fact, those who were there including producers disavow her participation or presence.


The real sad fact is that if there were no Standing In The Shadows of Motown (book/movie), she might have had a chance of getting away with the whole story. Not for me personally because I knew who was who before SITSOM but the multitude of young musicians who were not born or not mature enough when the events took place and the fact that to date most of the musicians who actually did the recordings are dead.
 
#135
jgbass said:
I just cannot imagine any man being discussed with such derision and misogyny. Correct me if I am wrong.
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I think you are wrong on the misogyny element in this case. For all the flak Carol Kaye gets around here--and I've seen a lot of it--scarcely any, if any, has been because she's a woman, as far as I've seen. She has gotten criticism because of several things: (1) some people have found her closed-minded as a teacher and musician, (2) some people have found her highly unpleasant to interact with on Internet forums, specifically her own, and (3) some people feel she has unfairly laid claim to another player's work (this is probably the source of more dislike than either of the others). Whether you agree or disagree with any or all of those things, not one of them has anything to do with her gender. Any male player who did those things, or was believed to have done them, would get slammed as hard around here. For example, some people have found Jeff Berlin to be personally unpleasant or overly opinionated and have said so, repeatedly and at considerable length. And no one has even claimed he took credit for somebody else's work. If you don't think male bassists get slammed, stick around.

From what I've seen, to the extent that Kaye's gender has even been discussed around here, it's overwhelmingly been in positive or sympathetic terms, as in giving her respect for succeeding in what was then, and still is to a great extent, a context mainly run by and populated by men. Now, you can't tell from what someone types what they're really thinking, and it's possible that people could type one thing and think another (i.e., be cool on the Internet but misogynistic in real life). But all you, or we, have to go on in a forum like this is what people actually type in their posts. If you're going by what people are actually saying in their posts, and not trying to mind-read, then I honestly don't see all this misogyny you're referring to. Dislike, yes; misogyny, not so much.
 
#136
jgbass said:
The only reason I brought gender up is that I suspect it is something that plays into this ongoing things that goes on TB about Carol. I just cannot imagine any man being discussed with such derision and misogyny. Correct me if I am wrong.

Quotes from BassLand:

How does that stack up to the many who state she had nothing to do with the songs she claims but now I remember JGBass doesn't care about that. It doesn't fit JG's agenda. So be it.

I really do have a problem with taking the easy way out and suggesting in the face of all the evidence that the only reason Carol is being ragged on is because she was a woman
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BassLand,

Were the last comments in relation to something I said? If so, you are seriously misquoting and mindreading me. I said "I suspect it is something that played a part".... that's all in regards to gender. I certainly do not play gender cards, I play music in a male-dominated music world, and that's fine with me. I was just posing the question. All of your responses are enlightening and if they all create more understanding and clarity, so much the better. And, if I have an agenda, then I guess we all have agendas here.

Richard,

Appreciate your well-balanced comments. In a nutshell, that's what the three problems have been all along. I guess I've sometimes had a problem how things are stated and how it comes across to me.

Guess I cannot be done with this until I'm not possibly misquoted here.
 
#137
1)"I play music in a male-dominated music world, and that's fine with me."

Unless I missed something the above statement is playing the gender card.

I am a woman = no gender card it would be fact
I play music = ditto
I play music in a male-dominated music world, and that's fine with me. = gender card


2) My agenda: defending James Jamerson's legacy against unfounded claims to signature performances...
 
#138
BassLand said:
1)"I play music in a male-dominated music world, and that's fine with me."

Unless I missed something the above statement is playing the gender card.

I am a woman = no gender card it would be fact
I play music = ditto
I play music in a male-dominated music world, and that's fine with me. = gender card
Click to expand...

I think you missed something, definitely. IMO that comment is not playing the gender card at all. Merely mentioning gender-related issues that are real for many women is not playing the gender card. The business of music still is male-dominated, like it or not.

As I understand it, playing the gender card implies a kind of unfairness of discourse, such as bringing in gender where it doesn't belong, or using it as a stick to beat somebody over the head with when you don't have a better argument. I don't think it means just making a sociopolitical statement about the music world that you may or may not be uncomfortable with. I don't think it means merely mentioning the fact that gender can be an issue.

Playing the gender card, IMO, would be more like blaming gender for every single gig you didn't get, or assuming that all male musicians hate you, or saying that the only reason a male musician could dislike Carol Kaye would be because of gender. I don't think the comment of jgbass's that you quoted really fits the definition.
 
#140
Hi Richard,

I will concede your point regarding the gender card but a good musician should be considered as a good musician period. I have been out taking pictures of the fire here in L.A. it is about 2-4 miles from where I live in Griffith Park. IT was pretty spectacular to see. I am tired and going to bed...
 
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