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The Great Carol Kaye
- Thread starter Blackbird
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Hey, I just got a new picture for my desktop! Actually, I thought that picture was hilarious. I can take a joke, you know? I just didn't get to reply until now.
Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree about Carol's talents. I'm not inclined to do any transcribing unless I get paid for it. And I think her legitimate track record speaks for itself. As to why she's not in the HOF, obviously it's because of the Jamerson thing, and to a lesser degree, her denigrating of rock and roll as an art form. But if it were based solely on her body of work, she'd be there.
Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree about Carol's talents. I'm not inclined to do any transcribing unless I get paid for it. And I think her legitimate track record speaks for itself. As to why she's not in the HOF, obviously it's because of the Jamerson thing, and to a lesser degree, her denigrating of rock and roll as an art form. But if it were based solely on her body of work, she'd be there.
Which I guess is my point. The work she did is only part of who she is perceived to be. There can be extenuating circumstances which could drastically change the perception of an individual's accomplishments. IMO this is such an instance. A pity but, no less so...
Just to add my tiny 2 cents to this thread, and without getting into the whole Jamerson vs Kaye thing (because I have no input!), I was actually introduced to Ms. Kaye through Bassics magazine. I then read a thing or two about her online (all good), so I decided to email her to ask for some general tips and also to see which of her books/cd's would best help me out at my playing level. I said maybe one or two things about the lessons I take (all very vague) and asked how she thought I would best spend my limited practice time. She respoded by saying my teacher is a fraud, probably some former rocker who knows nothing about music (he actually went to Berkley, can play many instruments very well, introduced me to jazz, has freakin' amazing ears... you get the idea), and that I should stop taking lessons right now. Because I like getting instruction from every possible angle, I went ahead and ordered a couple of her books (which basically teach what we're covering in lessons, with Ms. Kaye making some things much easier to understand, while some other things she makes more complicated than they really are), but along with the books I got toooooons of materials telling all about her career(???). There's nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments, but this lady has some issues. Say what you will about her skills, something is not right with this lady.
I have been away from this site for quite awhile, mainly because I was getting tired of the Carol Kaye bashing going on here, but I think this thread has pretty much a fair appraisal of people's experiences. I too was banned from the site and also banned from prviate lessons as well. So, I got the brunt of it and felt like being banned was the most awful thing at the time, looking back.
As an electric and double bass player who happens to be female, I always admired Carol Kaye for her contributions from the 50's through the present and she really was the impetus for me deciding to go for a career in music somewhat later in life. The reason I say "female" is because I just really had no true mentors in my early learning times and when I met someone female and older who made music her living through teaching, studio work, and gigging it just got me going on how can I make a career for myself in music. Now, I have met other female pro musicians, but she really was the first who was an inspiration for me to get going in music.
As far as her playing, I have an ear for what she played on, its recognizable for me in any style, and I especially like her time sense and phrasing and I have learned so much from her books, videos, and personal lessons. I'm still working on the jazz video. That is a classic. I have the greatest of admiration for her contributions to music education and the thousands and thousands of recordings she has made. Her teaching style is unique, but it has been valuable and understandable and the best approach for me in jazz and pop music thus far. I am also a classical player, so I study many styles.
But I really think Carol is, at heart, at jazz player, and from what I have heard through the grapevine, she is very busy gigging in jazz and standards groups and her own group on both guitar and electric bass. Carol's roots are jazz and I think one of her missions is to keep alive the traditions of the classic jazz of the 50's.
I think she is honest to a fault, and therefore, I have no reason to not believe what Carol says about what she played on. Maybe these were demos, but I am sure she played on them. Many of these tunes are in her teaching materials note for note, and I cannot fathom any intentional deceit going on here. To what purpose would that be? Bernadette is there. I Was Made to Love Her is there, and many other lesser-known worksin her books. Anyway, that has been discussed to death and I have nothing further to say.
So, if this thread is really about her contributions to the music world, then her contributions have been great in many areas and its too bad that all this personality stuff has to stand in the way of all of this. People are who they are. Her contributions are listed on her website.
As an electric and double bass player who happens to be female, I always admired Carol Kaye for her contributions from the 50's through the present and she really was the impetus for me deciding to go for a career in music somewhat later in life. The reason I say "female" is because I just really had no true mentors in my early learning times and when I met someone female and older who made music her living through teaching, studio work, and gigging it just got me going on how can I make a career for myself in music. Now, I have met other female pro musicians, but she really was the first who was an inspiration for me to get going in music.
As far as her playing, I have an ear for what she played on, its recognizable for me in any style, and I especially like her time sense and phrasing and I have learned so much from her books, videos, and personal lessons. I'm still working on the jazz video. That is a classic. I have the greatest of admiration for her contributions to music education and the thousands and thousands of recordings she has made. Her teaching style is unique, but it has been valuable and understandable and the best approach for me in jazz and pop music thus far. I am also a classical player, so I study many styles.
But I really think Carol is, at heart, at jazz player, and from what I have heard through the grapevine, she is very busy gigging in jazz and standards groups and her own group on both guitar and electric bass. Carol's roots are jazz and I think one of her missions is to keep alive the traditions of the classic jazz of the 50's.
I think she is honest to a fault, and therefore, I have no reason to not believe what Carol says about what she played on. Maybe these were demos, but I am sure she played on them. Many of these tunes are in her teaching materials note for note, and I cannot fathom any intentional deceit going on here. To what purpose would that be? Bernadette is there. I Was Made to Love Her is there, and many other lesser-known worksin her books. Anyway, that has been discussed to death and I have nothing further to say.
So, if this thread is really about her contributions to the music world, then her contributions have been great in many areas and its too bad that all this personality stuff has to stand in the way of all of this. People are who they are. Her contributions are listed on her website.
+1
I have her Thumbs Up CD with Ray Pizzi and Mitch Holder. Jazz. When I went to look for it, it was sitting right on top of my stereo, having been played recently. Nice jazz tunes with a touch of funk, good lines to emulate in my playing. Been listening to that one for years and play along with it.
There's also a kind of retro 60's type of album with the late pianist Hampton Hawes, in my mind, the best West Coast pianist of his time, called Northern Windows Plus. She really funks it up there. A lot of her work is found in the the more traditional pop singers. There's a tune that Mel Torme recorded entitled Games People Play that is so funky and really shows off some fast chops and her sense of impeccable time. I was able to find it on Yahoo or Napster, one of them. There's also a Joe Pass CD she has sold on her website with Joe Pass, and others, can't locate it now, that is a good listen. You can even buy charts to the tunes on her website to play along and learn from. There's movie soundtracks, tv show theme songs (i.e. Mission Impossible), some Barbra Streisand tunes, etc., etc.
Of all the thousands of recordings Carol Kaye has made, I have never understood all this negative focus on a few tunes that really have nothing to do with Carol's commitment to want to educate people in the traditions of jazz, be a jazz player,and to educate others in what she terms the boogaloo foundation of rock/pop music. She was playing jazz every night in the late 40's, learning on the bandstand, as one did back then, and, as I understand, she is playing jazz and pop almost every night now.
As a result of my years reading her forum, I developed a whole, new appreciation for music I never listened to before that much -- 50's jazz, the more pop-oriented music of the 60's and 70's, and I am not just talking about AM radio hits that seem to be disparingly spoken about here -- I am talking about artist like Mel Torme, Ray Charles, Glen Campbell, Nancy Wilson, Barbra Streisand, many others. Maybe I thought this was not really very hip at the time, but I have developed a great appreciation for this music. Put on any standards radio station and I would guess that the majority of the tunes played there from the late 50's have her playing bass. Really, playing with these kinds of artists and all the movie soundtracks as well as her contributions to jazz. being an educator, her wonderful educational materials, are probably the work she would most like to be known for.
If you spent some time talking with Carol, that's the kind of stuff she would really like to talk about, especially her jazz roots. The rock and LA Motown stuff was about making living, hired gun stuff, that's the extent of it, that's not about the music she really loves to play and cares most about, in my opinion.
>>> Whatever it was, it was so unimportant and petty, that I can't even remember. What I do remember, is how she blindsided me with burning napalm, and this is after I was a cash paying customer. She's a total nut job. She's getting up there in years now, so luckily her big mouth won't be around much longer. She should have hung it up years ago, her circuits are all haywire.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
I think that I just got banned tonight. I was posting in a thread that Carol started. We exchanged a few posts dealing with chord progression / jazz phrase clarification. I think I made the mistake of saying "diatonic chords" in my post. I was a relatively new member to her forum and I was getting used to the way she labels and describes musical concepts. She said more than once, "Real musicians don't say that."
I was never rude or disrespectful. I tried to login a short while later and it said that my username was inactive or my password was invalid.
I really didn't expect that. Why would she do that? Joe
Bassist4Life,
I see stuff like that all the time on her site...I'll bet she wishes that she could figure out what ID I use so she could get rid of it. She is a real piece of something... Her site is really a closed shop where she has the only real privilege to speak her mind (or what's left of it anyway). Just be glad she doesn't go very far from that site and inflict that kind of attitude on the rest of the web!
I see stuff like that all the time on her site...I'll bet she wishes that she could figure out what ID I use so she could get rid of it. She is a real piece of something... Her site is really a closed shop where she has the only real privilege to speak her mind (or what's left of it anyway). Just be glad she doesn't go very far from that site and inflict that kind of attitude on the rest of the web!
I guess that people aren't really supposed to post in her forum. You have to register to even read her posts. I did notice that there are a lot of members with a post count of zero. That seemed strange to me at the time, but now I understand. Strange...
Joe
PS. I enjoyed your video that shoots down the string length/intonation issue. I was going to try that on my own, but you saved me the time and trouble. Bravo!
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