The Great Carol Kaye

[Richard Lindsey]

for me, guitar is to bass guitar, as violin is to viola, or cello to bass, or alto to tenor, etc.

let the flames begin.

No need for flames, it's the simple truth. The bass clarinet is the bass member of the clarinet family, the mandobass is the bass member of the mandolin family, and so on. It's the same way with the bass guitar.

But that's matter for another thread....

 

[jgbass]

Being mostly a DB player of jazz and classical, although having many years of experience on electric bass aka bass guitar, they really are different instruments requiring different technique and how and when these instruments are used seems to depend on the style of music played.

I wouldn't bring my electric to a classical gig, and I wouldn't bring my upright to a classic rock gig. The main place I see both instruments used is in jazz, but with upright used more widely. There are some exclusively electric bass jazz players, but few and far between. CK's electric bass CD is a great example of jazz electric bass with a funky feel as well

 

[Munjibunga]

No, not quite. There's also the issue of claiming credit for somebody else's work.

Regardless of who invented it, "BassLand's wild hare" is the metaphor I used to include that issue.

 

[BassLand]

use your metaphors wisely...

 

[BassLand]

another thread about her highness...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207644&highlight=Carol+Kaye

 

[Paladin7]

Just to add my tiny 2 cents to this thread, and without getting into the whole Jamerson vs Kaye thing (because I have no input!), I was actually introduced to Ms. Kaye through Bassics magazine. I then read a thing or two about her online (all good), so I decided to email her to ask for some general tips and also to see which of her books/cd's would best help me out at my playing level. I said maybe one or two things about the lessons I take (all very vague) and asked how she thought I would best spend my limited practice time. She respoded by saying my teacher is a fraud, probably some former rocker who knows nothing about music (he actually went to Berkley, can play many instruments very well, introduced me to jazz, has freakin' amazing ears... you get the idea), and that I should stop taking lessons right now. Because I like getting instruction from every possible angle, I went ahead and ordered a couple of her books (which basically teach what we're covering in lessons, with Ms. Kaye making some things much easier to understand, while some other things she makes more complicated than they really are), but along with the books I got toooooons of materials telling all about her career(???). There's nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments, but this lady has some issues. Say what you will about her skills, something is not right with this lady.

>>> Whatever it was, it was so unimportant and petty, that I can't even remember. What I do remember, is how she blindsided me with burning napalm, and this is after I was a cash paying customer. She's a total nut job. She's getting up there in years now, so luckily her big mouth won't be around much longer. She should have hung it up years ago, her circuits are all haywire.

Hey folks, No offense meant. But, first do what she's done, as a woman in the '50-'60's, a GREAT musician and a pioneer in the field...Then grow old and sustain all the attacks. All I'm saying is "It's got to suck." Cut her some slack and continue playing your OWN stuff like you would have anyway.

 

[Roger Mouton]

Paladin7,

Well said. I recently wrote Carol about all this stuff....something to the effect of "What could you have done to garner all this vitriol?" I couldn't possibly read through all these Carol Kaye posts (there are too many of them) but it's obvious that those complaining have far too much time on their hands and far too much misinformation about her.

One additional comment regarding credit for sessions played (one of the themes in the Carol Kaye criticisms). Bob Babbitt had a rather personal and unique viewpoint on it and he commented about an interaction with Jamerson years ago in the club across the street from the original Motown studios. It was printed in Bass Player Magazine and went something to the effect that Jamerson didn't even recognize Babbitt's playing, thinking it was himself on a juke box recording they were listening to. It wasn't malicious but Babbitt had to point out that it was Babbitt playing and not Jamerson.

As a former drummer I had a similar experience many years ago......I played on a rehearsal session that actually became the record release. I never got credit it. It was a characteristic of the business back then before actual playing credits were even listed on sessions. Not well managed.

 

[jnprather]

Some links in support of my last post....

http://poopnugget.com/images/kaye-jamerson1.jpg

jesus... the pick is just floating there in mid air next to the right hand. That's good stuff..

 

[Roger Mouton]

jnprather,

Is there a point or some hidden message in your post? The picture is an obvious fake. Is that Carol's head superimposed on Babbitt's body or Jamerson's? Or even your's for that matter? Carol is a picker. But then you obviously must know that.

 

[PB+J]

it's not hard. She 's a mixed bag.

Kaye was a first call session musician in LA in the 60s--a musician of genuine and deep talent and skill. Like all session musicians, she played on some great tunes and on a lot of forgettable crap. She was also, as a woman, a rarity on her chosen instrument and something of a pioneer--no doubt about it. She can be warm and supportive.

She's also prickly, irrational, and prone to false claims and odd, inexplicable hostilities. I've been on the receiving end of some of her more threatening outbursts and I have some compassion but little sympathy for her.

 

[jnprather]

jnprather,

Is there a point or some hidden message in your post? The picture is an obvious fake. Is that Carol's head superimposed on Babbitt's body or Jamerson's? Or even your's for that matter? Carol is a picker. But then you obviously must know that.

Um, no hidden message, I was just enjoying the absurdity of that picture, and pointed out how hilarious the pick next to Jamerson's hand was, since the person who did it didnt even try to make it look like the pick was actually in his hand... classic...

You did notice that I was quoting that picture from an earlier post by BassLand, right??

 

[Roger Mouton]

Sorry, I didn't notice the earlier post. It's been tough to wade through all the Carol Kaye posts. My apologies.

 

[Blackbird]

jnprather,

Is there a point or some hidden message in your post? The picture is an obvious fake.

Invalid Link Removed

I'll be quiet now.

 

[srxplayer]

I have heard her work and read some of the stuff she has written. I think she is a very talented musician and deserves to be recognized for her contributions.

What I find funny is how there is this shadow over her about how opinionated she is and that she is tempermental and rude...She sounds alot like Jeff Berlin but I see far fewer negative things said about that guy for his attitude and using that as a reason to discredit or ignore his talents.

 

[jgbass]

I have heard her work and read some of the stuff she has written. I think she is a very talented musician and deserves to be recognized for her contributions.

What I find funny is how there is this shadow over her about how opinionated she is and that she is tempermental and rude...She sounds alot like Jeff Berlin but I see far fewer negative things said about that guy for his attitude and using that as a reason to discredit or ignore his talents.

It seems that here at TB it has become OK to talk about Carol in negative ways, to the exclusion of her many talents. Why, I am not sure, and a lot of this talk seems to be guided by misinformation. No one else has ever been dissected so much here, yet few bassists have made as many musical contributions to the bass world as Carol.

And, speaking as one who has been on the receiving end of being banned, etc. by Carol, it does not take away from the contributions her educational materials and musicial information have made on my growth as a musician, teacher, student, and person. Yeah, sometimes it hurts, even years later, to think about being kicked out and banned. I guess I was just a wannabee to her at the time. The timing was awful, on both sides, for taking lessons from her, but that's a separate issue from appreciating someone's musical achievements and learning from what they truly have to offer.

 

[lady_bassist]

Even if CK played on HALF of the recordings she claims to have done, she still would be a legend. Male or female.
It's sort of disgusting to watch twenty-year olds who barely have a gig throw insults at a woman who jams around with George Benson and knows more about jazz theory than they ever will. And they think they have the right...
Didn't mean anyone in particular here, of course Don't mean to insult you at all. It was an observation of a different forum that lead to this.

Just enjoy the music, folks... Motown times were strange times. Of course, I wasn't there (most of you weren't there, I suppose), so I'm not claiming I know anything.

BTW, calling ANY woman a "bitch" is LOW. Too low even for the bassist.

 

[PB+J]

From what I've seen, nobody evber denies that she was a first call session bassist--that's just obvious. And nobody denies that she's a first rate player. She's both of those things. She's also kind of a jerk and has a problematic relationship with the truth. Both these things can be facts

 

[62bass]

She still can outplay anyone who posts on this forum. That may be the big problem for some. Her educational materials are excellent also, and contain knowlege that most younger teachers lack and has been almost lost. That is also a problem for some.

 

[BassLand]

She still can outplay anyone who posts on this forum. That may be the big problem for some. Her educational materials are excellent also, and contain knowlege that most younger teachers lack and has been almost lost. That is also a problem for some.

That is PURE speculation on your part (you have no idea whom on this forum you are talking about with that statement). You also must know that she would never show up at a place where she might be able to prove her present ability without claims of what she did 40 plus years ago, which makes you statement baseless.

I can tell you this! She is a player who trades on the fact that she is female to garner sympathy and support for just being around a long time. The more important question to me when facing someone like yourself making these statements in her stead is where do you think you fit in as a player. Until YOU live up to certain expectations regarding YOUR quality as a player worthy of such consideration, your words and claims are as empty as some of hers. You can go to several places on the net to hear me play what about YOU?

She is not a better player than I am (just different) no matter how many times she (or you) says so, how many records she did (or how many she may have claimed to do that she probably did not in fact do). Possible 40 years ago (when the knowledge of TODAY'S HISTORY was unavailable) she might have gotten away with but now now, today.

I am not claiming to be "better" than any other player. But I am also not ready to sit and be bullied by some one who think's they are. Especially when in my eyes, they don't deserve it.

The only place where she can get away with some of the outrageous claims/statements of Carol Kaye factoids she makes is with the young or those who don't know any better on her own heavily moderated website. In the real world outside of her site all she can does is bitch and moan about how her way to play/teach/record is better than anyone elses and/or encourage those of you who have come out into the real world to do her bidding for her.

She will always find great resistance to her wild statements, claims and accusations from those individuals (in the real world) who sensibly resist the notions that she supports.

These facts have put whatever stature she should have attained for JUST being around to be considered 2nd place next to her IMO uncouth attitude.

Why isn't she in the rock and roll Hall of Fame? Her two close buddies Earl Palmer and Hal Blaine got in on the first ballot with Jamerson 7 years ago and she is still not there. That alone should tell you something.

I do not plan to debate this issue any further because I know you will never respond to the points I have made here. You will only see some small part of this post you think you can defend to make the discussion go your way. There will be talk on your part of misogyny (spelling?) idle defense of your hero and anything but the music and I chose not to follow you up on those talking points so have at it my young friend.

Have a good Sunday!

 

[Richard Lindsey]

She still can outplay anyone who posts on this forum. That may be the big problem for some. Her educational materials are excellent also, and contain knowlege that most younger teachers lack and has been almost lost. That is also a problem for some.

No, not really. Not that I can see, anyway.

From page 7 (sorry for quoting myself). These, AFAICS, are the main reasons some people have an issue with CK, and none of them have anything to do with whether she's a good player or whether her educational materials are of quality:

"She has gotten criticism because of several things: (1) some people have found her closed-minded as a teacher and musician, (2) some people have found her highly unpleasant to interact with on Internet forums, specifically her own, and (3) some people feel she has unfairly laid claim to another player's work (this is probably the source of more dislike than either of the others)."

For the record, with respect to (1), you can be a great player and educator while still being closed-minded. For example, Louis Armstrong, one of the most important, if not the single most important, figures in the history of jazz, dismissed bebop as being "Chinese music." He was still great, but also closed-minded. I'm not putting CK in Armstrong's class, obviously, but the principle is the same.

So no, the fact that people have problems with CK has IMO absolutely nothing to do with her ability to play.