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The infamous Jazz midscoop.

Salamenster

Salamenster

Apr 8, 2012
1,563
119
European Mainland
#1
Hi,

I'm experiencing trouble with my classic 70's jazz bass in the mix. I just hate using EQ (I'd most likely keep everyting flat if possible), but OTOH I love the two pick-ups on full. I play in a band with clean two guitars. And I'm getting a bit lost in the mix. Not too much, but enough to bother me.

Now, I'd like to ask the Fq-range of the jazz bass midscoop to boost exactly THAT region with me EQ and keep the rest flat, with a semiparametric EQ or boost the one (hi/lo mid) a bit with non-semiparametric EQ's.

So... Does anyone know? I'm suspecting lo mid, but I'm not sure...

Thx. :hyper:
 
#2
Jazz midscoop? That's a new one on me. Why do you think they put two volume knobs (or volume/blend) on basses? Why do you think they put EQ on basses? Your problem should be easy to solve simply by favoring the bridge pickup a little.

It seems like you have some arcane reason to leave everything "flat." If that's the case, you clearly need to get rid of that bass and find one that sounds good to you with everything set the way you imagine it should be set. Either that bass is failing you, or you're failing it. The EQ and pickup volumes are there for you to adjust to different situations. Your current situation is that you're getting lost in the mix, and it's bothering you, but not bothering you more than turning a couple knobs on your bass.

You also haven't mentioned what amplification you're using. That will also have a substantial impact on how you sound in the mix. Maybe more than the bass.
 
#3
I was a tele bass player for YEARS, and switched to a jazz. I always did the both pick-ups on full, but recently have really been discovering the power of blending the pick-ups.

If you like your amp, and like the sound of it flat, then I say leave that, and use the Pups on the Jazz to control your sound.

Try starting with just the neck Pup, and then add the bridge Pup slowly till you find the mid profile you like.

Or the other way around... start with just the bridge Pup (if you like that sound better than the neck solo), and roll up the neck Pup untill you find the midrange tone you like.
 
#5
Good tips, thanks!

My amplification depends on the location. I'm mostly in the P.A. pre-EQ'd anyway. I've recently started gigging and I'm not in the situation of buying a good gigworthy amp yet (nor will I be the coming 3/4 years).

I've tried the Pup blending, but didn't find that satisfying. I just like that crisp, smoothness both pickups and tone on full have.

I've seemed to be able to retain it by just boosting my mids a bit, but I'm not sure if that would be enough.

So my initial question was the RANGE of the midscoop, so I could really precisely boost the range where it's at, so I do not alter have the overall sound too much, because I really dig that.
 
#7
It sounds like the problem is...you actually DON'T like everything left flat on your amp's eq. There is no "mid scoop" in jazzes- they just don't have the low-mid bump of a precision, but are rather more full spectrum in their sound. That said, I've owned several jazzes and they can get lost in the mix IMO, hence the need to adjust your amp's Eq. Don't be dogmatic about it. Experiment with it and embrace it!
 
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#8
I don't know what the freq of the mid scoop is. I would guess it's a big group of freq that can't really be addressed by targeting one number on a parametric eq. Maybe if you set the EQ to have a wide Q. My advice would be don't focus on the numbers so much, and focus on getting a good sound that works for you on stage.

If you like the sound of both Pups all the way up, and your amp set flat, but you are getting lost in the mix, then problem sounds like it is with your stage monitoring (what ever that might be).
 
#9
Salamenster said:
Yea, it has something to do with phase-cancellation when both your pickups are on full. It answered all my questions about Jazz basses.
Click to expand...

So have you tried favoring the bridge pickup? Almost all [17] of my basses are jazz basses, jazz clones, or jazz style (2 pickups). I don't get lost in the mix. On some of the basses, they work fine with the pickups balanced (I don't like V/V/T). On some, I find it helps to favor the bridge slightly to cut through and give a little more bite down low. For example, I boost the mid slightly and roll to the bridge slightly on my F Basses to get the tone I want. It's not necessary on my Sadowskys because both pickups are closer to the bridge. Your bass needs some adjustment to get the tone you really want.

You've got to break free of your compulsion to leave the knobs in one position. Not every venue will have the same acoustics - you'll have to adapt to them by turning knobs somewhere. At a recent gig, the stage resonated on Bb​. I had to EQ to reduce the boominess when we played in that key. Adaptability is important in gigging situations.
 
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#10
Gasman said:
It sounds like the problem is...you actually DON'T like everything left flat on your amp's eq. There is no "mid scoop" in jazzes- they just don't have the low-mid bump of a precision, but are rather more full spectrum in their sound.
Click to expand...

+1 and -1 here.

It does sound like you don't really like the sound of both Pups all the way up (in the mix). I think when you hear the bass solo, you like it, but when you hear it in a mix, you don't. Remember what sounds good playing by yourself, doesn't always sound good in a mix with a band.

The other part is, I think Jazz Basses DO have a mid scoop when you have both Pups all the way up. Someone said above it's about phase on the Pups, and that causes a scoop.

The way to deal with this, IMO, is to adjust the EQ by either adjusting on the amp (boost your mids a bit, cut low and treble, etc), or do it on the bass (boost the mids a bit) by blending the Pups. Roll either one back a bit and start getting a different mid profile. This will help you "cut thru" the mix a bit and help you hear yourself. It may sound a little harsh to you when you hear it solo, but it will sound good in the mix... two different animals.
 
#12
Yeah, I have tried both options. I think you all are right, but Gasman has a good point. I'm too dogmatic about non-EQ'ing.

I've tried complementing the midschoop with a midbump on my amp and a miracle has occured. It still has that nice smoothness but it articulates much more now.

Time will tell if it works well live.

It has got me thinking about why a J has that midscoop if it mostly doesn't work properly in a live situation and why guitars seem to get away with it.
 
#13
Not sure what it means to favor leaving everything flat.

Yeah, start that way, but you Gotta dial it based on what you hear in the room you are in.

I don't use tone controls. I basically keep my tone control fixed, and I use the Pickup volumes as my tone controls.
I might start with things even, but if I am not cutting in the mix, the bridge pickup gets turned up.

Simple approach, and it generally works.
 
#15
SBassman said:
Not sure what it means to favor leaving everything flat.

Yeah, start that way, but you Gotta dial it based on what you hear in the room you are in.

I don't use tone controls. I basically keep my tone control fixed, and I use the Pickup volumes as my tone controls.
I might start with things even, but if I am not cutting in the mix, the bridge pickup gets turned up.

Simple approach, and it generally works.
Click to expand...

Sounds familiar.
 
#17
Salamenster said:
Hi,

I'm experiencing trouble with my classic 70's jazz bass in the mix. I just hate using EQ (I'd most likely keep everyting flat if possible), but OTOH I love the two pick-ups on full. I play in a band with clean two guitars. And I'm getting a bit lost in the mix. Not too much, but enough to bother me.

Now, I'd like to ask the Fq-range of the jazz bass midscoop to boost exactly THAT region with me EQ and keep the rest flat, with a semiparametric EQ or boost the one (hi/lo mid) a bit with non-semiparametric EQ's.

So... Does anyone know? I'm suspecting lo mid, but I'm not sure...

Thx. :hyper:
Click to expand...

Try the j-retro preamp and boost mids. Or try the Aurere 4 band preamp and boost mids.

Or get a bass eq pedal and boost mids. Also try rolling off the volume of one of the pickups to get more of a single coil tone.


The stock wiring of a jazz bass with the pickups reverse wound and parallel wiring will scoop mids.
 
#19
Salamenster said:
It has got me thinking about why a J has that midscoop if it mostly doesn't work properly in a live situation and why guitars seem to get away with it.
Click to expand...

Guitars get away with it because the guitar is a totally different instrument than a bass. Apples and tangerines.

As far as why the jazz bass has that mid scoop... it only has it when you have both Pups ful up. That is one setting out of many, many, tones that are available to you with the Jbass configuration. There is no rule that says, turn both knobs all the way up.

Both Pups all the way up is a nice sound and is great for some situations, but it is just one tool in the tool box of tone.

I have an ampeg amp that is very mid voiced. Sounds great with the jazz with both Pups up. I have a fender amp that is a little more mid scooped by nature, and it sounds great with one of the Pups rolled back a bit.
 
#20
Any two coils running concurrently result in some phase cancellation and loss at some frequency. True in a humbucker and true with a J bass (both pickups on) or strat. In a J, the cancellation is in the "mid" frequency range resulting in a scoop and slightly lower output vs solo-ing the neck. I can't answer the poor OP's question about what frequency exactly that is. Answer probably varies by pickups and certainly varies by the distance between them.

The "problem" with a standard J is that a lot of folks (including me) want it to be humbucking and the only way that happens is if both pickups are set at equal volume. The solution to that "problem" is either to EQ at the amp or to purchase aftermarket humbucking split singles like those made by Dimarzio, Bartolini, Fralin, Nordstrand and others. That's my answer because I like to be able to get full use from two or three pickups without the annoying hum.

As some others have said, you can treat a J as a single pickup bass and do the EQ at the amp to taste. Probably best to do it based on ear anyway because acoustics and song needs vary as others have pointed out.

For those who never stray from both on full, there are other options. For example both pickups can be wired to one volume with a series-parallel switch.

The other two knobs could be wired as passive bass and treble controls which then give some (albeit imperfect) additional on-board tonal control. A single band pre is another possibility.

Enough babbling from me for today. :)
 

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