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The kick drums relation to the bass?
- Thread starter Juggo
- Start date
I’m going to address the bass/kick drum in a live mix…
The standard drum set is really a collection of at least 7 different acoustic instruments: bass, snare, two toms, high hat, crash and ride cymbals that the expert musician will mold into a seamless, smooth presentation. Miking that drum set is opening a can of worms and requires an expert, be it at a professional stadium show or a small club. If the sound man doesn’t know what he is doing, the total show will be ruined, and the drummer sounds like s%^t. All too often I have arrived at a show to find the soundman starting his mix by getting the kick drum AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE so that everything is under it…WAY under it. I’ve seen this done by countless weekend warriors and Billy Joel shows alike. The very first instrument to lose out is the bass!
The standard drum set is really a collection of at least 7 different acoustic instruments: bass, snare, two toms, high hat, crash and ride cymbals that the expert musician will mold into a seamless, smooth presentation. Miking that drum set is opening a can of worms and requires an expert, be it at a professional stadium show or a small club. If the sound man doesn’t know what he is doing, the total show will be ruined, and the drummer sounds like s%^t. All too often I have arrived at a show to find the soundman starting his mix by getting the kick drum AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE so that everything is under it…WAY under it. I’ve seen this done by countless weekend warriors and Billy Joel shows alike. The very first instrument to lose out is the bass!
Hello Juggo,
that was actually one of my questions in the thread just below. Turns out that the most basic and correct approach is to have bass guitar playing on exactly same position and time as kick drum. Locking them together is elementary relation You can't go wrong with. This of course goes if You wanna do it the simplest and correct way. Everything else comes an advanced option, for advanced bass players..
Well, the drummer and the bassist make up the foundation of the rhythm section. The bass is a low frequency instrument, so when it hits a note simultaneously with the kick the syncopation is strong and provides a solid foundation to the rest of the musical structure. You don't always have to hit with the kick, but to provide a strong foundation you do have to be aware of where it comes in and how you want to play with or against it.
bassinplace has it right.
and there's something else I've recently noticed about the bass/kick relationship. During my commute lately I've been revisiting some old McCartney music (on ear buds) and noticed that on several cuts on the Ram album his bass and kick are positioned just slightly off center...very slightly. Leaving a clean slot for his lead Voc to be centered on those tracks. There is also a noticable EQ difference between his bass and kick. Then there are a few tracks where the drums and bass are panned wide left & Right. And the drums are all mixed without any panning at all.
In Phil Ramone's book "Making Records" Phil addresses the Bass/Kick relationship and emphasizes the need to have different EQ on each so that they are not covering each other's frequencies in the mix.
These studio techniques can easily apply to a live situation, especially the EQ settings in the live mix.
and there's something else I've recently noticed about the bass/kick relationship. During my commute lately I've been revisiting some old McCartney music (on ear buds) and noticed that on several cuts on the Ram album his bass and kick are positioned just slightly off center...very slightly. Leaving a clean slot for his lead Voc to be centered on those tracks. There is also a noticable EQ difference between his bass and kick. Then there are a few tracks where the drums and bass are panned wide left & Right. And the drums are all mixed without any panning at all.
In Phil Ramone's book "Making Records" Phil addresses the Bass/Kick relationship and emphasizes the need to have different EQ on each so that they are not covering each other's frequencies in the mix.
These studio techniques can easily apply to a live situation, especially the EQ settings in the live mix.
Sometimes you just can't predict how the drummer plays the kick, it could variate from beat to beat.... So you have to learn to play along the kick and if nothing else provide the pulse if the drummer can't do it.
you could play every note in concordance with the kick. If its mixed right (the soundman will take care of that) your notes will have a lot more power to it. Otherwise they could be buried and unnoticable. Some times I only play certain notes with the kick, like the perfect 5th or minor 7th. it has an interesting effect.
All of these comments and suggestions are great, but when a poor "soundman" comes between the musicians and the audience, it's all moot.
I really think that many many bands, at all levels, don't have a clue how they really sound "out there".
I really think that many many bands, at all levels, don't have a clue how they really sound "out there".
The bass drum and the bass in pop music tend to define where 1 is and establish the pace or pulse. But the bass is related to the entire kit as well as the main melody (lead vocals) and the harmony instruments (guitar/piano) - so focusing solely on the bass' relationship to the kick is omitting a significant amount of detail. In pop the bass' relationship to the kick is only a fraction of it's overall function in the ensemble. Sort of like saying, "What's the 'A' string's relationship to the song?"
In jazz, the drums invert this formula somewhat and it's the cymbals that drive the bus while the snare, kick and toms provide accents. The bass itself is primarily responsible for defining the 'strong beats' - by clearly defining forward motion by emphasizing the downbeat (the one) and clarifying the style through use of specific syncopation accenting particular subsequent beats/off-beats.
The bass relates to the rhythm differently based on the style of music. In rock/pop/funk (modern pop), the bass drum and snare are the driving forces behind the pulse with toms and cymbals used as accents. In this situation, the bass relates to the drums by helping to mark the downbeats and strong beats by landing good notes in close relation to the kick and snare. The bass will also be helping to define harmony through note selection and will play off of the accents of the kit clarify rhythmic intent and help define and stylize forward motion.
In jazz, the drums invert this formula somewhat and it's the cymbals that drive the bus while the snare, kick and toms provide accents. The bass itself is primarily responsible for defining the 'strong beats' - by clearly defining forward motion by emphasizing the downbeat (the one) and clarifying the style through use of specific syncopation accenting particular subsequent beats/off-beats.
The bass relates to the rhythm differently based on the style of music. In rock/pop/funk (modern pop), the bass drum and snare are the driving forces behind the pulse with toms and cymbals used as accents. In this situation, the bass relates to the drums by helping to mark the downbeats and strong beats by landing good notes in close relation to the kick and snare. The bass will also be helping to define harmony through note selection and will play off of the accents of the kit clarify rhythmic intent and help define and stylize forward motion.
“Lock in with the kick” is a vague, ill defined and non-technical phrase that means different things depending on who you ask,
yet most will insist it is critical (see also “groove”, “pocket”, “swing”
The various meanings I have seen put forth include:
“play only exactly on the kick drum hits”
“play the kick drum hits but also other cool stuff”
“play the one with the kick”
“play something that complements the kick drum pattern”
The truly critical thing is to play with accurate tempo a consistent rhythm appropriate to the style. How the drums and bass interact is heavily dependent on what genre you are playing, and for many genres various definitions above simply break down.
yet most will insist it is critical (see also “groove”, “pocket”, “swing”
The various meanings I have seen put forth include:
“play only exactly on the kick drum hits”
“play the kick drum hits but also other cool stuff”
“play the one with the kick”
“play something that complements the kick drum pattern”
The truly critical thing is to play with accurate tempo a consistent rhythm appropriate to the style. How the drums and bass interact is heavily dependent on what genre you are playing, and for many genres various definitions above simply break down.
Well, I was just pointing the simplest and correct way to do it. Of course that best bass players have the ability to make it more complex and avoid just beeing a mirror reflection of the kick drum.
It might be a matter of opinion and genre related, but more complex doesn't always have to mean more exciting. Country bass guitar lines for example are both simple and brilliant. Sometimes the beauty is in simplicity.
The bass and drums have a somewhat symbiotic relationship in that the way they play combines to become a single entity - the rhythm section. You both do similar things to provide the groove. The fundamental elements of how you sync up are defined by the style of song. Some demand a very tightly locked kick/bass thing, others treat the link differently.
If you want to know the best ways to integrate with the rhythm section, listen to a lot of styles.
If you want to know the best ways to integrate with the rhythm section, listen to a lot of styles.
That's exactly what I've noticed too. It's especially prominent on heavy metal gigs, but there you can't hear anything properly anyway. BUT, also during SMV and Stanley Clarke / George Duke concert I noticed that same issue. But they were on the same venue in Helsinki, so I guess the soundman really is the culprit here. I ruins the dynamics totally to have that chest moving kick drum sound. And I can't say the drummer is even grooving so much if some part of the drum beat is too dominant.
I usually hit with the kick on the one. I'm hardly ever only playing when the kick drum is playing because I'm usually hitting 1/8th notes or 1/4 notes.
