the myth of modes

[Whousedtoplay]

Therefore "my point," seeing as I doubt there will be "A (final) point," is that of course they exist whether you know of or acknowledge them or not (our beloved major and minor scales are just two of the seven afterall), and their usefulness also varies greatly based on many factors.

Anyway. Some time ago, I was "hooked" on that Melodic Minor scale; therefore, I used John Goldsby's notes on Melodic Minor Modes to help me arrange some harmonic background for my exercise.
As a very beginner in "Bass Soloing", I've decided to stick with just one CmMaj7 chord (the Melodic Minor scale), recorded a simple, monotonous bass riff, and used John Goldsby's article to embellish that "just-one-boring" chord on the keyboard.
The following table from John's article really helped me a lot.
Or in short, knowing the Modes helped me!

 

[dincz]

decorum and civility that existed before I joined the TalkBass forum

There seems to have been a fundamental misunderstanding here.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Ok. I'll agree with at least one other in this topic that the modes are simple enough. Not sure how 'myth' even applies. They are what they are. To me saying there is a myth implies that they somehow are not what they seem. I just don't see it. No mystery really.

Now this post sorta sums up the myth of modes idea......not quoting it for any other reason than to maybe remind those reading this great tread of a point i made earlier on.
So modes, as i said, help enhance what you already know, so the more you need to know...the more they will help and vica versa......
So if you are new to theory ideas then you will not be up on the idea why modes are considered a "myth" to bestowing those that learn them magic understanding of music.
There will be those with limited experince that focus the word myth and take it literally, and those with vast and ranging experience that will take it in the context they know it is being used.
But you have to know the context.....the more you know about this sort of discussion the more you will get the myth of modes...and vica versa.

Also someone mentioned modes and fingering patterns being distracting, or leading to just playing shapes....well music theory is not for the instrument, so do not learn on your instrument, learn using pen and paper.
Write down what to learn, work on it on the paper, then transfer it to the instrument...and back to the paper a few times till you get it.

If this seems to hard then get Trombone music books, and books about how theory applies to Trombone, as a Tromebone uses slide positions, not fingerings, then learning about modes from a Trombone book will cure this problem....and of course the more you know.......and visa versa on this point.

 

[Michael B]

Now this post sorta sums up the myth of modes idea......not quoting it for any other reason than to maybe remind those reading this great tread of a point i made earlier on.
So modes, as i said, help enhance what you already know, so the more you need to know...the more they will help and vica versa......
So if you are new to theory ideas then you will not be up on the idea why modes are considered a "myth" to bestowing those that learn them magic understanding of music.
There will be those with limited experince that focus the word myth and take it literally, and those with vast and ranging experience that will take it in the context they know it is being used.
But you have to know the context.....the more you know about this sort of discussion the more you will get the myth of modes...and vica versa.

Also someone mentioned modes and fingering patterns being distracting, or leading to just playing shapes....well music theory is not for the instrument, so do not learn on your instrument, learn using pen and paper.
Write down what to learn, work on it on the paper, then transfer it to the instrument...and back to the paper a few times till you get it.

If this seems to hard then get Trombone music books, and books about how theory applies to Trombone, as a Tromebone uses slide positions, not fingerings, then learning about modes from a Trombone book will cure this problem....and of course the more you know.......and visa versa on this point.

There is also a point that those who know too much theory forget that so much (great) music relies on modes to get a particular sound. So just because this 'myth' might apply to jazz it can be completely irrelevant to lots of great music. And all we are left with is people with different perspectives arguing over semantics. When actually they are both 'right' but only in the areas they live and not in all music.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

There is also a point that those who know too much theory forget that so much (great) music relies on modes to get a particular sound. So just because this 'myth' might apply to jazz it can be completely irrelevant to lots of great music. And all we are left with is people with different perspectives arguing over semantics. When actually they are both 'right' but only in the areas they live and not in all music.

The myth applies to all music, and in discussion this becomes apparent, in argument it gets lost because of en-trenched positions on not being able to un-learn ideas...same thing in sports, politics and religions.
Those in one area, or the one they live in, are the ones with limited experience I talk about, they will argue about it as being defined as...

Cool reading your posts and talking with you.

 

[Michael B]

The myth applies to all music, and in discussion this becomes apparent, in argument it gets lost because of en-trenched positions on not being able to un-learn ideas...same thing in sports, politics and religions.
Those in one area, or the one they live in, are the ones with limited experience I talk about, they will argue about it as being defined as...

Cool reading your posts and talking with you.

Question then (not meant to trap, just want your take): if I want a strong sound that a mode brings to my song, aren't I choosing that specifically? I am not ignorant of what else it could be, I just want that exact thing. I have already given prog metal and others have given pop examples where that is exactly what is happening. These song writers are not as limited in theory (as i of course am). And they choose modes for how they sound, and how they move when you switch.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Question then (not meant to trap, just want your take): if I want a strong sound that a mode brings to my song, aren't I choosing that specifically? I am not ignorant of what else it could be, I just want that exact thing. I have already given prog metal and others have given pop examples where that is exactly what is happening. These song writers are not as limited in theory (as i of course am). And they choose modes for how they sound, and how they move when you switch.

No you are not choosing anything specific (lets not play on the semantics of words or meaning in this but accept the general ideas being used).
You are making a decision on what you want to hear based on what you know at this point in time...that will change, and has to change by the very nature of development.
No song writer is ever limited in theory, they get limited in imagination and ideas, the same as a writer gets "block"...artists get block....any creative person will suffer "block".....it needs a new perspective to free it.......can I ask how old you are and what your playing experience is please?
I have a point to put to you based on it.

 

[Michael B]

No you are not choosing anything specific (lets not play on the semantics of words or meaning in this but accept the general ideas being used).
You are making a decision on what you want to hear based on what you know at this point in time...that will change, and has to change by the very nature of development.
No song writer is ever limited in theory, they get limited in imagination and ideas, the same are writer get "block" artists get block....any creative person will suffer "block".....it needs a new perspective to free it.......can I ask how old you are and what your playing experience is please?
I have a point to put to you based on it.

You tried this agism thing already. We are repeating ourselves. I am 47. You are not superior. You may have more music knowledge. That's not the point. You think a choice of a sound is somehow done because the song writer is limited. That's just not true. The writers I admire, have extensive jazz study AND choose to write with modes. I know this because they say exactly that. I also know that people who write pop music choose modes and keys and changes based on the sound and feeling they want. I know because they teach their approach. They are also often very well versed in classical or jazz study. They are not choosing because they are too young or not studied enough. I'm going to leave it there as you are obviously under some false impression that your POV is superior. That's unfortunate that you went there. Oh well. This is the internet and we are people. Cheers.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

You tried this agism thing already. We are repeating ourselves. I am 47. You are not superior. You may have more music knowledge. That's not the point. You think a choice of a sound is somehow done because the song writer is limited. That's just not true. The writers I admire, have extensive jazz study AND choose to write with modes. I know this because they say exactly that. I also know that people who write pop music choose modes and keys and changes based on the sound and feeling they want. I know because they teach their approach. They are also often very well versed in classical or jazz study. They are not choosing because they are too young or not studied enough. I'm going to leave it there as you are obviously under some false impression that your POV is superior. That's unfortunate that you went there. Oh well. This is the internet and we are people. Cheers.

You see you are making your own questions, answering them and coming to the wrong conclusions.
My question is "tell me what it feels to be 50 years old?"

Now think about what is required for you to answer that question?
Only when you are 50 and experiencing what I means to you will you get why I asked for your age.
When you become 60 you will question the way you felt about being 50, the only thing to change that is a different, or new perspective, the whole experience will be the same, you cannot undo or change what you done or why the conclusion you came to at 50 is different from the one you may have at 60.....any more than what you believed at 10 was relevant at 20..... and what you believed at twenty holds the same meaning then as it does now.

Nice talking again, even though you made up previous questions, answered them with scenario's only you could make and came to conclusions based on our own experience....and nothing to do with me, the way I teach or think....now we see expectation changing the outcome...not age or experience.....again cool talking with you, and please do not talk at me, talk to me.......I am a good listener.

 

[Michael B]

You see you are making your own questions, answering them and coming to the wrong conclusions.
My question is "tell me what it feels to be 50 years old?"

Now think about what is required for you to answer that question?
Only when you are 50 and experiencing what I means to you will you get why I asked for your age.
When you become 60 you will question the way you felt about being 50, the only thing to change that is a different, or new perspective, the whole experience will be the same, you cannot undo or change what you done or why the conclusion you came to at 50 is different from the one you may have at 60.....any more than what you believed at 10 was relevant at 20..... and what you believed at twenty holds the same meaning then as it does now.

Nice talking again, even though you made up previous questions, answered them with scenario's only you could make and came to conclusions based on our own experience....and nothing to do with me, the way I teach or think....now we see expectation changing the outcome...not age or experience.....again cool talking with you, and please do not talk at me, talk to me.......I am a good listener.

I only got defensive because it sounds like you think the difference in opinion is age related. I just think your way of dismissing modes is disregarding so much other music that exists.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I only got defensive because it sounds like you think the difference in opinion is age related. I just think your way of dismissing modes is disregarding so much other music that exists.

Never dismissed modes or disregard modes, only they way they are taught not used.....you are confusing me with another post, or reading in to a reply I have made using your own prejudice.....but cool like I said each to their own.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

I only got defensive because it sounds like you think the difference in opinion is age related. I just think your way of dismissing modes is disregarding so much other music that exists.

He is saying neither.

He is making the point that from where you are, using age as one possible example, you see things a certain way and based you decision upon that perspective. As you grow or age you will likely amass new information which will both change how you look at what you already know and add more new information.

You could insert any experience for age though, travelling, trying new careers, ect. None of them guarantee that you learn or change your perspective, but they more often offer an opportunity that keeping things the same doesn't.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

How can music be aged related???? Think about it..... throughout history the best new music was written by young people, and usually before the age of 27.
What we see today, if they are from generations ago and still alive, is the old person in our eyes....but we hear the young player in our ears.
Example, many players study Motown and Jamerson....but the kid on the records, and that's what he was a kid, has people studying for a lifetime to try and create what he did.....how funny it is to see 50 year old men trying to be as good as a 20 year old kid, while dismissing the current youngsters as not having experience.

 

[Michael B]

He is saying neither.

He is making the point that from where you are, using age as one possible example, you see things a certain way and based you decision upon that perspective. As you grow or age you will likely amass new information which will both change how you look at what you already know and add more new information.

You could insert any experience for age though, travelling, trying new careers, ect. None of them guarantee that you learn or change your perspective, but they more often offer an opportunity that keeping things the same doesn't.

I can't argue on behalf of what I have learned from otheres (who are quite experienced at very high levels in many styles including classical and jazz). I just know that it works - works well. And is the core of a vast majority of popular music. It's not that these songwriters are ignoring a bigger concept. They are choosing it. It really feels crazy to have to defend so much great music, created with these modes at their core. It is well documented. Is modes the be-all? Of course not. Chords, key centers, progressions, substitutions, adding notes in for flavor are all part of it.

Can a guitarist learn the modes and just solo without going deeper - sure and it would be truly limiting. But that doesn't diminish the power of modes used in context.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

He is saying neither.

He is making the point that from where you are, using age as one possible example, you see things a certain way and based you decision upon that perspective. As you grow or age you will likely amass new information which will both change how you look at what you already know and add more new information.

You could insert any experience for age though, travelling, trying new careers, etc. None of them guarantee that you learn or change your perspective, but they more often offer an opportunity that keeping things the same doesn't.

You got in one, experience, not age, has to change. I have never been truly happy with anything I have done when I look back on it...." I should have done that...or not done that..." And as I get older I now look ahead, my past experience is impacting on the choice I make for the future...the day I think " that's good enough" I'm dead in the water, yet I still practice daily after 45+ years, read and study, because i'm starting to get the hang of it a bit and who knows I may get good at it.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I can't argue on behalf of what I have learned from otheres (who are quite experienced at very high levels in many styles including classical and jazz). I just know that it works - works well. And is the core of a vast majority of popular music. It's not that these songwriters are ignoring a bigger concept. They are choosing it. It really feels crazy to have to defend so much great music, created with these modes at their core. It is well documented. Is modes the be-all? Of course not. Chords, key centers, progressions, substitutions, adding notes in for flavor are all part of it.

Can a guitarist learn the modes and just solo without going deeper - sure and it would be truly limiting. But that doesn't diminish the power of modes used in context.

Cool post and if it works in your scene go for it, we have to earn money from were we are, to allow us to be creative as song writers.
Do not feel the need to defend anything on-line, say our piece, make your point and move on.
Those looking for arguments will show themselves, so just ignore them...this is advice, not criticism by the way, so please don't get defensive on me... I offer it because you seem to take things to heart, which is cool, but on-line will get you upset and down...
Now I am sitting her in the UK, nearly midnight, cigarette in hand, cheeky little red in a glass enjoying conversation under a dark cloudless sky with the stars out...how are you doing it?

 

[Lanky Tunes]

It seems a lot of people are hearing that modes are bad or something, but I have not read anyone saying this. Even the OP seems to be talking about the necessity of being conscious of them and how they are taught.

Note choice is nothing more really than tension and release and so, in a sense, what you are playing can be explained modally at times when you are not aware of it being so, but what is being said is that you do not need the grid of modes/modal thinking to get the sounds that those of you who use that grid do.

It is often two different paths to the same result.

It is a question of how you are thinking about what you are playing not what you are actually playing.

Most of what my "side" is complaining about is the way they are being taught and used.

There is nothing that you need to learn modes for and they are not the answer to the questions that many are asking when they get pointed in the direction of learning them.

A good method of teaching can give you all of the playing skills that you can possibly get from filtering one's playing through modal thinking.

Of course one should understand them from a theoretical point of view because that is how many players do think and thus communicate with one another and of course you can be a great player while thinking modally.

The inability to even conceive this is what show the obvious need for it to be stated and this sort of discussion to happen.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

And is the core of a vast majority of popular music.

This is simply not true.

The vast majority of music can fit retroactively into modal thinking, but modal thinking was not even on the radar of the vast majority of players and writers of popular music.

This is simply a historical fact.

 

[onlyclave]

I went to music school for a long time. The subject of modes was not as important as you guys make it out to be.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

It seems a lot of people are hearing that modes are bad or something, but I have not read anyone saying this. Even the OP seems to be talking about the necessity of being conscious of them and how they are taught.

Note choice is nothing more really than tension and release and so, in a sense, what you are playing can be explained modally at times when you are not aware of it being so, but what is being said is that you do not need the grid of modes/modal thinking to get the sounds that those of you who use that grid do.

It is often two different paths to the same result.

It is a question of how you are thinking about what you are playing not what you are actually playing.

Most of what my "side" is complaining about is the way they are being taught and used.

There is nothing that you need to learn modes for and they are not the answer to the questions that many are asking when they get pointed in the direction of learning them.

A good method of teaching can give you all of the playing skills that you can possibly get from filtering one's playing through modal thinking.

Of course one should understand them from a theoretical point of view because that is how many players do think and thus communicate with one another and of course you can be a great player while thinking modally.

The inability to even conceive this is what show the obvious need for it to be stated and this sort of discussion to happen.

Cool post, again for me its about teaching, not using modes that is the issue.
But I have to say again that time and experience will change this, and only by investing in time to gain the experience can this be understood...CATCH22 or what?

So I will offer another example of this, when I see a tab and I read the numbers...I see the notes not the numbers.
If for example on the E string it say 333333 55555 7777 10 10 9 9 I just read GGGGGG AAAAA BBBB D D Db Db, the numbers do not register as such just the notes.
This is because I can count, learnt it as a kid, but because of music the conversion of numbers to notes is automatic....Mode if given a chance, over time will just flow, you then use your modal experience to work out what you done if you will.
But that Catch 22 is part of the myth...like cycle of 5ths, playing with the fingers is better than a pick, or learning to use three finger plucking will make you play faster.

No mention of polymodes to form chromatics yet...cool...the night is young.