Having studied with George Russell, Bob Ross is the most knowledgeable person to talk about it.
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the myth of modes
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Having studied with George Russell, Bob Ross is the most knowledgeable person to talk about it.
It sounds like a really interesting concept & book; I hope to read it someday.
Would you say that 1953 was around the time the "myth of modes" (or whatever you want to call it) started to creep into music education, perhaps partially as a result of Russell's book?
I have not invented that term, "myth of modes", you should ask the OP about it, but here are a few things that "perplexes" me about that "separation" of Modal and Tonal music.
(P.S. I'm very glad that the OTHERS were able to understand those theoretical nuances.)
It's not to argue about - it's to better understand Modality and Tonality only.
Tonality, Modality and Atonality
"Music which conforms to modes other than major and minor is called modal, hence modality. Arguably, music in major and minor keys is also modal (?!-WUTP), but due to the need to separate these categories, it is best to reserve the term "modality" for music that uses other modes. Modal music is "keyed", because it has a tonic and a mode, hence A-Lydian is a key."
modal
(Sorry for such a long quote.)
"The difference between being in a minor mode and being in a minor key is the presence (or not) of a leading tone. A leading tone is the note that is one semitone lower than the tonic note, and often wants to move upward to the tonic note. The Dorian and Aeolian scales both lack this leading tone. The tone directly below the “tonic” of those scales is a whole tone away. Music evolved during the 16th century, responding to a desire on the part of composers to use a leading tone near the ends of phrases, as the melody moved up toward the tonic.
How do I know if a song is in one of the minor modes, or in a minor key? Here’s a little checklist:
- If the melody is rising upward toward the tonic note, and accompanied by a minor V or flat-VII, the song is in either the Dorian or Aeolian mode.
- If the IV-chord is major (and/or if the 6th note of your scale is a whole tone above the fifth note), the song is likely in the Dorian mode.
- If the V-chord is major, the song is likely in a minor key.
And to help with some examples from the real world:
All Along the Watchtower (Bob Dylan): Aeolian Mode (C# Aeolian, using the chords C#m B A B)
Losing My Religion (R.E.M.): Aeolian Mode (A Aeolian, using the chords Am Em Dm G) (same as The Cure’s “Love Song”)
Eleanor Rigby (The Beatles): Dorian Mode (E Dorian, using the raised 6th note; the raised 6th becomes a lowered 6th a little later as it “pulls down” toward the dominant note.)
She’s Not There (The Zombies): Minor Key (with delvings into Aeolian and Dorian at various points… a very interesting example.
California Dreamin’ (The Mamas & the Papas): Minor Key (lowered chords C#m B A at the beginning come from the lowered tones of the descending melodic minor scale.)..."
Tonality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"At least eight distinct senses of the word "tonality":
- As a term to contrast with "modal" and "atonal", implying that tonal music is discontinuous as a form of cultural expression from modal music (before 1600) on the one hand and atonal music (after 1910) on the other.
- A generic term applied to pre-modern music, referring to the eight modes of the Western church, implying that important historical continuities underlie music before and after the emergence of musical modernism around 1600...
- The most common usage, referring to the arrangement of musical phenomena around a referential tonic, as found in European music from about 1600 to about 1910, using two modal genera, major and minor
With Modes, the less you know the less they matter to you and the less you will get from them, and vica verca.
Modes are not about organising notes to form scales, but organising interval to flow in a certain way, to help music flow.
I have said it many times, so i will say it again, i studied music at orchestral level for over seven years, and in that time I was taught how modes were constructed in a lesson one afternoon after about....seven years.
The reason it was never dwelled on was because it is so speculative how they can be used, so pointless trying o each it at orchestral level. Once you move in to composition with harmony, melody, etc then "dwelling" on them will bring rewards....but they will only enhance, or develop, from what you already know.
They will not give special in-sight to new players, rather the opposite, they will confuse, they are not a key to anything unless you have something worth opening.
As someone said in a previous post, "to someone with a hammer everything is a nail"
I have been a musician for over 40 years and never had anyone of any importance suggest a modal idea, or scale for that matter, for anything i have done in a session, recording or development...all the information is on the paper, and in my head....i may see it as a modal movement, although it may never have been written in that intention, but because i can see it as that is just one of the may options i have t interpret it from the page, or from what some tells me, or plays to me.....it is just part of what makes me me, and makes you you.....how we process what we know.
Some of the best players that i know who use modes do not use them as modes, they use them because the sound good, and it just happens that they fall into a modal concept.....which if you talked to them about why they played will tell you "it sounded good".
Therin lies another cool thing about modes, you do not even need to know that they exist to use them.....
Modes are not about organising notes to form scales, but organising interval to flow in a certain way, to help music flow.
I have said it many times, so i will say it again, i studied music at orchestral level for over seven years, and in that time I was taught how modes were constructed in a lesson one afternoon after about....seven years.
The reason it was never dwelled on was because it is so speculative how they can be used, so pointless trying o each it at orchestral level. Once you move in to composition with harmony, melody, etc then "dwelling" on them will bring rewards....but they will only enhance, or develop, from what you already know.
They will not give special in-sight to new players, rather the opposite, they will confuse, they are not a key to anything unless you have something worth opening.
As someone said in a previous post, "to someone with a hammer everything is a nail"
I have been a musician for over 40 years and never had anyone of any importance suggest a modal idea, or scale for that matter, for anything i have done in a session, recording or development...all the information is on the paper, and in my head....i may see it as a modal movement, although it may never have been written in that intention, but because i can see it as that is just one of the may options i have t interpret it from the page, or from what some tells me, or plays to me.....it is just part of what makes me me, and makes you you.....how we process what we know.
Some of the best players that i know who use modes do not use them as modes, they use them because the sound good, and it just happens that they fall into a modal concept.....which if you talked to them about why they played will tell you "it sounded good".
Therin lies another cool thing about modes, you do not even need to know that they exist to use them.....
Why people fight the idea of modes?
I find them very useful and logical but.........you know........it is music not constitutional law; if I don't want to use them, I won't........and I won't bore TB with the times when I choose not to use modes.
I find them very useful and logical but.........you know........it is music not constitutional law; if I don't want to use them, I won't........and I won't bore TB with the times when I choose not to use modes.
The thing is ... everyone use them, it is just another name for something we all already use. We are used to hear Ionian and Aolian sound, not much the others.
Jazz musician use those color to color their solo but they probably never think of that in that way. But anyway.
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Boys will be boys and Modes will be Modes
Funny how someone here sounds like an old banned member
Funny how someone here sounds like an old banned member
Modes are like radio waves. They exist independently of what we may think of them.
Billions of people are using various cell phones without any deep knowledge of wireless communication/radio physics.
"There are almost as many cell-phone subscriptions (6.8 billion) as there are people on this earth (seven billion)", but...
Those Billions of people are not attacking fewer numbers of engineers/IT specialist who are interested in Radio Physics and are trying to learn more of it.
Anyway.
Why do some people fight modes?
Human vanity?
(P.S. With very few exceptions of highly educated and seriously PRO musicians who tend to forget that the TalkBass (that "R-5th") forum is not the right place to argue their Doctoral Dissertations.)
Anyway, I'd like to thank you for your answers to my questions.
The same thing goes to "joebar."
My respect to both of you! Thank you!
I think at least some of TB members learned something new.
I found an interesting article about the Modes.
If you have time, check it out.
http://www.lifesmith.com/BHWeb/Music Theory - Advanced.pdf
Contents.
.
fergie's response was as good as it gets-
I think modes are caught rather than taught.
fergie's response was as good as it gets-
I think modes are caught rather than taught.
OK. I don't con
Music theory ABSOLUTELY works like that!! That's what music theory is for!
FWIW, I used the phrase the "proper scale" as it was in response to your original post which used the term scale rather than "mode."
Now, I'll leave the dissertation aside for the moment because there seems to an alarming amount of willful ignorance on this thread, and I'll just say this for a moment cuz I have to leave for work.
I used to play guitar exclusively. I played a wide array of styles. When I played guitar, I employed my knowledge of modes probably 98% of the time, when I play bass, maybe 2 percent. This is not to imply that being a bassist requires less skill/technical ability.... It's just different. Bassists drive the groove, rather than the flavor of the song...
Each mode is a flavor, and just like a regular major chord (with no 7) has a vastly different character than a major 7, which in turn differs vastly from a flatted 7 chord, modes, each of which is based on a specific chord, is equally dissimilar.
Modes in music, (other than the blandest, mass produced pop songs), are extremely common! For example, much of Santana, (including Evil Ways, and Black Magic Woman, are in Dorian.
Much of Grateful Dead is in Mixolydian.
Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, and Guthrie Govan compose a tremendous amount of their songs in Lydian (based on the Major 7 chord, not to be confused with the dominant 7 which has a flatted 7th and which the Mixolydian is based on...)
For Phyrigian: (minor chord in the third degree), you have White Rabbit and the Doors' Spanish Caravan)
These songs all have extremely distinctive sounds, because they are based on modes!
Music theory ABSOLUTELY works like that!! That's what music theory is for!
FWIW, I used the phrase the "proper scale" as it was in response to your original post which used the term scale rather than "mode."
Now, I'll leave the dissertation aside for the moment because there seems to an alarming amount of willful ignorance on this thread, and I'll just say this for a moment cuz I have to leave for work.
I used to play guitar exclusively. I played a wide array of styles. When I played guitar, I employed my knowledge of modes probably 98% of the time, when I play bass, maybe 2 percent. This is not to imply that being a bassist requires less skill/technical ability.... It's just different. Bassists drive the groove, rather than the flavor of the song...
Each mode is a flavor, and just like a regular major chord (with no 7) has a vastly different character than a major 7, which in turn differs vastly from a flatted 7 chord, modes, each of which is based on a specific chord, is equally dissimilar.
Modes in music, (other than the blandest, mass produced pop songs), are extremely common! For example, much of Santana, (including Evil Ways, and Black Magic Woman, are in Dorian.
Much of Grateful Dead is in Mixolydian.
Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, and Guthrie Govan compose a tremendous amount of their songs in Lydian (based on the Major 7 chord, not to be confused with the dominant 7 which has a flatted 7th and which the Mixolydian is based on...)
For Phyrigian: (minor chord in the third degree), you have White Rabbit and the Doors' Spanish Caravan)
These songs all have extremely distinctive sounds, because they are based on modes!
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The "something worth opening" was knowledge of the fretboard for me. Using C Major, D dorian, E phyrigian, F Lydian, G mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B locrian I learned where all the natural notes on the neck were in a way I could never lock down before. It taught me tools for composition and improvisation (particularly for diatonic songs or during diatonic parts of progressions) during the same exercises too, because I got to peek at what musical "consonants" I had access to under any given chord in addition to the "vowels" of chord-only tones I already knew... helping my melodic parts, fills, or solos (the latter usually on my occasional guitar playing).
I did have to unlock a basic understanding of what the modes were and how/why they related to each other, but just a few good websites taught me enough to get into the fretboard workouts above I assigned myself.
All this to say I believe it can be very worthwhile to new players if explained/taught in an intuitive way.
You are making a very good point about the modes, especially if those modes REALLY HELPED YOU.
Once again, I highly recommend for new players to read a short tutorial on modes that I've posted earlier.
http://www.lifesmith.com/BHWeb/Music Theory - Advanced.pdf
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An example off the top of my head where the soloist might play F natural as opposed to F# over an Amin7-D7 progression would be a blues jam where the guitarist uses a G scale with a flat 7 (such as G blues, G minor pentatonic, G mixolydian, etc.) while I am playing a ii-V turnaround.
What I've discovered when teaching the vast majority of kids, is that they can usually play all the modes.
But when you ask them to play something in one of them (say, Lydian) they either simply play the scale again, or look at you like a monkey at the console of a nuclear reactor.
That is where the disconnect lies IME. They know some of the theory, but can't translate that knowledge into music.
But when you ask them to play something in one of them (say, Lydian) they either simply play the scale again, or look at you like a monkey at the console of a nuclear reactor.
That is where the disconnect lies IME. They know some of the theory, but can't translate that knowledge into music.
Addendum:
This is, beyond all doubt, the most emotional thread I have ever read through on TB!
Now, I have studied theory for years, and I can lecture for hours on end about how modes matter, how they need to be internalized and understood, on a fundamental level by every musician save bassist and drummers.
But I won't. Because it seems that everyone here has split into 2 camps, neither of whom will budge one iota from their ossified opinions.
Those who support the "modes don't matter' position will not even read what I have to write from a technical perspective. So I'm gonna make a few simple bullet points, and feel free to call on me and expand on any one in specific if you want elaboration.
1. Modes only matter when you employ diatonic scales. Bassists wouldn't know how to employ a diatonic scale outside of a fingering exercise book written for fretless bassists, or in a beginners book shamelessly padded by shameless publishers. Bassists (good ones, the musicians, will know when to use a sharped or flatted 5, or seven based on the chord played, to throw in some flavor/nuance, but you don't need to know the difference between the second and third degree (both minor 7ths, but a world apart in "character."
2. Those slash chords? (if you don't know what that is, bow out of this discussion gracefully, now), those are for the bassists. You know why? The bassist is not necessarily supposed to mimic the main progression, they are to resolve and create tension.
3. Yes, a G Mixolydian technically employs the same notes as a C Ionian. But NO, you cannot simply (as a guitarist, pianist, whatever,) simply launch a melody line or solo, that typifies it's personalty, simply by playing your C major licks starting with the G note. There are different substitutions, modulations, tensions, that apply to each mode, that become part of your repertoire as you become more knowledgeable and immersed.
Trust me, as a guitarist I suffered with that mindset for long enough before I internalized this.
I quick illustration before I gotta get back to work: The Phyrigian mode: it's a minor. However, you can do amazing things substituting that minor with a major here and there. Hell, that's a step away from genuine flamenco.
You simply cannot perform the same substitution with any of the other minor modes.
More later--peace out.
This is, beyond all doubt, the most emotional thread I have ever read through on TB!
Now, I have studied theory for years, and I can lecture for hours on end about how modes matter, how they need to be internalized and understood, on a fundamental level by every musician save bassist and drummers.
But I won't. Because it seems that everyone here has split into 2 camps, neither of whom will budge one iota from their ossified opinions.
Those who support the "modes don't matter' position will not even read what I have to write from a technical perspective. So I'm gonna make a few simple bullet points, and feel free to call on me and expand on any one in specific if you want elaboration.
1. Modes only matter when you employ diatonic scales. Bassists wouldn't know how to employ a diatonic scale outside of a fingering exercise book written for fretless bassists, or in a beginners book shamelessly padded by shameless publishers. Bassists (good ones, the musicians, will know when to use a sharped or flatted 5, or seven based on the chord played, to throw in some flavor/nuance, but you don't need to know the difference between the second and third degree (both minor 7ths, but a world apart in "character."
2. Those slash chords? (if you don't know what that is, bow out of this discussion gracefully, now), those are for the bassists. You know why? The bassist is not necessarily supposed to mimic the main progression, they are to resolve and create tension.
3. Yes, a G Mixolydian technically employs the same notes as a C Ionian. But NO, you cannot simply (as a guitarist, pianist, whatever,) simply launch a melody line or solo, that typifies it's personalty, simply by playing your C major licks starting with the G note. There are different substitutions, modulations, tensions, that apply to each mode, that become part of your repertoire as you become more knowledgeable and immersed.
Trust me, as a guitarist I suffered with that mindset for long enough before I internalized this.
I quick illustration before I gotta get back to work: The Phyrigian mode: it's a minor. However, you can do amazing things substituting that minor with a major here and there. Hell, that's a step away from genuine flamenco.
You simply cannot perform the same substitution with any of the other minor modes.
More later--peace out.
And they generally don't know anything more than a pattern. They know the 1 of the mode. That's it.
I find that I encounter the modes most often when I work with folksong material. I can consider using some modal lines when I compose as well. But when I'm playing bass (granted, it's mostly rock when I'm doing that), I don't think I've ever encountered it.
No, no, and no.
It's not the most emotional thread on TB!
What to do for those like me who think that the modes, "more or less coalesced - grew together - into the major and minor mode of the tonal system?"
The illusion of the later group even existing (who actually said modes don't matter?) in this thread is likely the reason for the crying and personal attacks.
Maybe if people find themselves getting emotional they should take a few deep breathes, reread what they think they just read, and address actual points being made and not perceived attitudes.
