the myth of modes

[John Goldsby]

Thanks INTP . . . very nice thread. I've got to check out for a few days (road gig), but I'll check back in later this week.

"When you practice, you get better,"

That's one of the greatest things about playing music, IMHO.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

Scales and modes create various palettes of tonal colors important to the sound of a melody. I'd say that a scale is more than the sum of it's parts (intervals).

Scales are palettes, which makes them expanding or limiting based on which end you are coming from.

I am pretty sure that there is no combination of notes one can play that has not been formalized into a scale by someone, but my point is that you don not need the knowledge of the scale to play it's contents. You only need the intervals.

 

[John Goldsby]

Scales are palettes, which makes them expanding or limiting based on which end you are coming from.

Right . . .

You don't need to understand the meaning of the sentence, to...sentence...only...need...the...words...determined...in...that...meaning....grammar...used...important.

Words are important, and so is the meaning of a sentence, which is determined by the grammar.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

Right . . .

You don't need to understand the meaning of the sentence, to...sentence...only...need...the...words...determined...in...that...meaning....grammar...used...important.

Words are important, and so is the meaning of a sentence, which is determined by the grammar.

That is a horrible analogy. Someone isn't playing nonsense just because they don't know scales of modes.

People without knowledge of what scale or mode the intervals they have chosen can be found in still know what they are saying and still speak clearly.

Maybe if you wanted to say that scales and modes were somehow the names of the parts of speech? You don't have to know what "verb" means to use a verb properly.

 

[John Goldsby]

That is a horrible analogy. Someone isn't playing nonsense just because they don't know scales of modes.

I didn't say that.

Even when someone doesn't understand grammar, we can still understand their meaning if they're writing or speakly clearly. We can analyze what they say or write later according to the rules of grammar. They might even convey something meaningful by deviating from the standard rules of grammar.

If I'm understanding *your* point correctly, you're saying that intervals are more important than scales as building blocks of music. That's cool.

I see it in a different light: intervals are essential elements when building chords, scales and modes. They are interdependent.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

They are interdependent.

Except they're not.

Do you need intervals to play scales? Yes.

Do you need intervals to play modes? Yes

Do you need scales or modes to play intervals? No.

We are not interdependent if only one of us needs the other.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

I hope you are getting my message about that "I know nothing" knowledge, and I don't need to spend too much time about it.

I understand, but do not get your point.

I am not saying that people do not have the collections of sounds that make up melodies, scales, modes, or whatever as part of their awareness from which they now make music. I am saying they have not organized it into the categories that we have categorized it within music theory and therefore do not process their playing through that filter/language.

It is the difference between playing DEFGABC or knowing that that arrangements of notes can be called the Dorian mode of D.

This is why a learning a scale or mode can be something that either expands or inhibits your playing.

If you have never heard that collection of notes before then it is expanding your possibilities.

If you're being told that those notes must go together this particular way then it is limiting your possibilities.

 

[HandsFree]

... and the Melodic Minor Scale is not merely a concept. It's a scale, and it has seven modes. It's been in use for hundreds of years, and its use has been widely expanded by modern classical and jazz musicians.

Thanks for your reply. But...

With the word 'concept' I didn't mean to imply that melodic minor is not real, or something that's only theoretical. Should I have used another word?
What I meant to say was that melodic minor is a concept/thing/??? that is not associated with modality but with tonality. It's there to adjust for the (melodically difficult) augmented 2nd that would appear between 6-7 if harmonic minor were used, which of course exists to avoid the weak v-i pull and create the much stronger V-i.
I'm just mentioning this to illustrate that it is placed within tonality.

The main characteristic or property of modes is their tone center.
defgabc is a dorian mode only if it's tone center is d. That's what gives it it's characteristic tone. If the same sequence is played in a piece where C is the tone center, then it's just a C-major scale. Starting a scale not on it's root doesn't change anything to the scale.
As I said in other posts, modes have never been derivates of each other. They are independently existing, eh, modes. Memorizing them as major-scale-starting-on-the-nth-note is a memory aid, but gives a wrong idea of dependency between the modes.

As such, by the mere definition, no scale has modes. That's the hole point of them, that they exist independently.

Of course you can analyze what whole-step-half-step sequences you get if you play a melodic minor scale, or any other, from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th tone. How valuable that is would be another discussion, but those steps are not modes.

This may sound like semantic nitpicking, but the implications are big. And any student referring to the tonal (concept? argh!) of ii-V-I as dorian-mixolydian-ionian has misunderstood where modes come from. But far worse, is also misunderstanding basics of tonality. Like how in this thread and elsewhere the simple use of chromatics has been confused with modality.

 

[INTP]

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but reading this thread makes me want to shut down my computer and practice modes.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

Are you ready to create YOUR OWN MUSIC THEORY that could help, at least, me to understand all that HUGE OCEAN OF MUSIC?

If so, it means that you are going to impose YOUR VISION, YOUR rules on me that would, for sure, limit my possibilities.

You do not need RULES to analyze. So NO my method of explaining what is happening musically is NOT limiting possibilities.

I'd really like to talk to ANY musician whose playing abilities were INHIBITED after learning those bad scales.

Maybe you should start from the beginning of the thread and read more carefully.

Nobody has said anything about the content of scales and modes being an inhibition. We are talking about them 1- being taught inaccurately, 2- them being taught as rules, and 3- them being taught as more important than they are.

So you have met PLENTY of people who have been inhibited by those three thing and quite possibly are one yourself.

 

[joebar]

How can I explain that nice sound of G# in D major?

because the song is in the key of F#minor

defgabc is a dorian mode only if it's tone center is d. That's what gives it it's characteristic tone

this is a great way to explain it in a simple concise manner

And any student referring to the tonal (concept? argh!) of ii-V-I as dorian-mixolydian-ionian has misunderstood where modes come from

I agree.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

↑
How can I explain that nice sound of G# in D major?





But...
My question was about that G# pitch in D major.
Let's place my questions in order.
We have the D major chord = the D major scale - D, E, F♯, G, A, B, and C♯.
The key signature of the D major scale has only two sharps only F# and C#.
Why does that G# sounds better than G?


but...
How to explain that raised 4th?
I thought that if we have a "pure" D major triad/chord we should play G not G# (raised 4th).
Let's see, maybe we can get some answers from this thread.


.
Let's look at that chord progression.
D major | E major | F# minor | E major |

With this answer, I now that I can easily play A#/Bb as a leading tone to the 5th of the next E major chord, and C ♮ natural as a leading tone to the 5th of the F#minor chord.
We agree that Music theory is to EXPLAIN music.
Do I like that "chromatic note" explanation?
Does it help me to better understand that VERY EASY chord progression?

Maybe I could find a better explanation to my question?



It's an approach note, you dummy Whousedtoplay.
Should I just play ANY notes and rationalize, "Everything else is just an approach note?"
It's a good explanation, but for some unknown reason, I'm still not happy with that reasoning.

Hey, look I think I found what I was looking for.

I found the best answer to explain that G# with D major scale.


Here is another one:

I'm so grateful that finally I found a good explanation about my very easy question.
View attachment 776974

P.S. Hey, Whousedtoplay, you are NOT MAKING friends here at TB. Just saying...

A "Lydian" mode works very well over a major chord, it isn't too far from the Ionian basic mode and add somekind of flow. It is also a context thing... if it happens only a few times during the bass line it probably is just a passing tone especially if it is followed by the 5th. if the G# happens very often then it is because your Dmaj chord isn't a simple Dmaj chord in the context of F#min key. I could also be during a solo you are clearly using D lydian to add some flavor

 

[joebar]

Let's look at that chord progression.
D major | E major | F# minor | E major |

With this answer, I now that I can easily play A#/Bb as a leading tone to the 5th of the next E major chord, and C ♮ natural as a leading tone to the 5th of the F#minor chord.
We agree that Music theory is to EXPLAIN music.
Do I like that "chromatic note" explanation?
Does it help me to better understand that VERY EASY chord progression?

in the example of this song, it stays diatonic throughout and doesn't borrow non-diatonic notes or chords.

maybe if we extend the chords past their respected triads, it will shed more light-

-in the key of F# min, the three chords become:
-DMaj extended becomes D F# A C# E G# B=Dmaj13#11
-EMaj extended becomes E G# B D F# A C#=E13
-F#Min extended becomes F# A C# E G# B D=F#Minb13

in the D chord, notice the #11 which is the Lydian giveaway.
in the E chord, notice the b7 which is a tip off that it is some kind of Dom chord.
in the F# Min chord, notice the b13 which is your tip off that this is an Aeolian based chord.

all of these tips point you to F#Min with no exceptions.

this is just the theory though; in reality, I would likely not use (for example), an A note in my bassline over the E chord because its a natural 11th; I could play an A# here to raise the 11th and avoid that 4th interval. with the other two chords though, A is strong note to use.

its only theory though-

to answer your question; you could use the leading tone to the 5th of the chord and let your ear be your guide.

in this example, I would use the leading tone to the 5th on the D and E chord but not the F# because it is minor. the leading tone to the 5th here (C) could imply bluesiness which the song doesn't have. in the other two chords-they are major and that is why they would work better.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Some of you guys are too much... A bunch of nobodies arguing with accomplished, published bassist... It's just ridiculous... Mis-information, covered in layers of overthink.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Some of you guys are too much... A bunch of nobodies arguing with accomplished, published bassist... It's just ridiculous... Mis-information, covered in layers of overthink.

100%.

I think some TB members did not realize that they were talking to John Goldsby
- a very prolific and superb PRO bass player (Double/Electric),
and
an extremely-skillful educator with his solid and extensive experience
and
a very nice person to communicate with.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Dm7 / G9 | Em7 / Am7 | Dm7 / G7 | Cmaj7 / Am7 |

Dm7 / G9 | Em7 / Am7 | Fmaj7 / Dm7 | (Dm7/B) / A7 |

My questions.
Is that harmony Modal or Tonal?
What is the Tonality for that Chorus?
What would you call that A7 chord at the end? A secondary dominant?

Here is a sound snippet from of that chord progression.

IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSIC!
Just for educational purpose only.

http://www.talkbass.com/attachments...0/?temp_hash=40d2af08a733940ba261f6233e2983c2

I think it is tonal because it always turn around the same chords in a ii-V-I-vi chord progression
I think we are in key of Cmaj because first of all you have Dm7-G9-Em7 (if you add major 3rd going down from E ... you get a Cmaj7 from that Emin7 and it makes a lot more sense with the Amin7 after than saying it is the 4th after the E, we also don't have the melody or bass line or if there is more fancy harmonic knowledge here that would add accidential )
And yes I would call A7 a secondary dominant as it momentary turn Dmin7 as the I chord which makes a strong return to the begining of the progression. I know that the most common second dominant is a V7 of a V7.

 

[joebar]

Thank you for your very informative response.
I hope at least some TB members have learned something.
If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you another question/s.
During my lunch time, I programmed the following simple POP-ishly trivial 4-measure chord progression.

It's like some Chorus.
NO FLATS, NO SHARPS.

Dm7 / G9 | Em7 / Am7 | Dm7 / G7 | Cmaj7 / Am7 |

Dm7 / G9 | Em7 / Am7 | Fmaj7 / Dm7 | (Dm7/B) / A7 |

My questions.
Is that harmony Modal or Tonal?
What is the Tonality for that Chorus?
What would you call that A7 chord at the end? A secondary dominant?

Here is a sound snippet from of that chord progression.

IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSIC!
Just for educational purpose only.

http://www.talkbass.com/attachments...0/?temp_hash=40d2af08a733940ba261f6233e2983c2

I am in no way an authority because I am one of the nobodies referred to earlier.

however-

the whole progression is basically a ii V I in Cmaj. the Emin and Amin just lengthen the journey but don't alter it.
what is interesting about the B/Dmin chord is that this chord forms a Min7b5 which seems to want to go to an E7 after it and then naturally wants to resolve to an Amin to me.

just my thoughts

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I am in no way an authority because I am one of the nobodies referred to earlier.

I'm grateful for any comments that promote learning and help other TB members better understand HARMONY.
Thank you for your comment.

what is interesting about the B/Dmin chord is that this chord forms a Min7b5 which seems to want to go to an E7 after it and then naturally wants to resolve to an Amin to me.

It's a very good point. I just did not want to add any accidentals and start entering all those borrowed chords and mixed modes; therefore, I've kept it within the C major (A minor) scales.
I've tried to embellish those boring chords within the C major scale.
Instead of plain Dm7 I've played Fmaj7/D (bass),
instead of G7/9, I've used Bmin7b5/G (Bmin7b5 second inversion),
Dm7 as Am7/D leading to | (Dm7/B) / A7 |

Without making my question/s difficult, my easy version of Verse in the example would start with Fmaj7.

If the questions were about mixed modes, than my Verse of my example would start with Abmaj7/Gm7 etc...

P.S. Is it Modal or Tonal music?

 

[joebar]

P.S. Is it Modal or Tonal music

tonal I believe

 

[Lanky Tunes]

Some of you guys are too much... A bunch of nobodies arguing with accomplished, published bassist... It's just ridiculous... Mis-information, covered in layers of overthink.

Accomplished and published bassist? Really?

I almost blew coffee out of my nose reading that!

Accomplished bassist is right up there with "professional clown". It is impressive that either gets gigs, but there is also no accounting for taste.

Are there no "accomplished" folks who disagree with said bassist? You think people here have been living in caves and just come up with their ideas completely on their own?

Have you read more than one published book on bass instruction? Does being published somehow make authors agree with each other?

Being published means nothing in regards the the quality of the content. There is some complete crap out there by published authors...and most of it is contradictory to other authors.

It is hilarious that people ever use appeals to authority in an argument and even more so when it is about something as subjective as music.

Let me google that for you

I'd also love to know what amazing decoder you have used to qualify people here as nobodies.

I though most people here were anonymous.