the myth of modes

[joebar]

Please do explain- because last time I checked each mode was EXACTLY that.

this is where a lot of musicians (including me for many years) get sidetracked on modes.

instead of referring to the modes as you posted-
- C D E F G A B C =ionian
- D E F G A B C D =dorian
...

it is better to analyse them against the same tonic

-C D E F G A B C= Ionian
-C D Eb F G A B C=dorian -minor scale with a raised 6th which gives it a happier sound.
-C Db Eb F G Ab Bb= Phrygian -minor scale with lowered second gives it an exotic darker colour.
-C D E F# G A B = Lydian-major scale with raised 4th gives it airiness and floatiness.
-C D E F G A Bb= mixolydian-major scale with lowered 7th which makes this scale very useable when a bluesier sound is required; works well with dominant chords as a basic starting point.
-C D Eb F G Ab Bb= Aeolian-the natural minor scale; lowered 6th gives it its sadness and melancholy.
-C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb=locrian- lowered 2nd, 5th, 6th and 7th gives it all sorts of minor qualities and instability from the tritone.
...
the best way to learn them is to use the same reference point (C for example) and hear their inherent flavors or moods.

to simplify-you have 3 major and 4 minor modes; if you know the flavors, you can use them tastefully within songs without guessing if they will work.

 

[ryco]

I didn't read this whole thread. I'll admit I read the first page. There have been so many threads on this subject of modes and their "function".

I'm just going to throw in this tidbit for thought and bow out.
Modes are passive. Modes are the result of the key signature or the placement of the accidentals on the Grand Staff if one is wrting in , say, one of the various minors (Harmonic comes to mind) or even some oddball totally made up Key. Nothing more, nothing less. The scales and resulting chord type sequence comes about automatically as a reult of the accidentals designated for the lines and spaces.
Most songs are written with Ionic Major or Aeolian minor (same step sequence just starting at different points in the sequence) so the seven scales built off of the different starting points actually were given Greek names. These are just the standards because they are used so often.

Hope that made sense or is somewhat helpful.

One more thing: scales and chords are different sides of the same coin. Scales = heads; chords = tails; Key = the coin itself.
Scales are the sequence in layed out in 2nds; chords are the sequence stacked in thrirds.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

If you learned it, please name ALL THE AVAILABLE MODES for all 12 pitches.
You know I'm the MODE person.

there is no Mode or scale or key center with dodecaphonism/serialism. It is the whole point of that music

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Let's take that "Hey Jealously" as our example of MODAL music.
As a beginner "guitar player" :***: , I have no knowledge about Modal Music.
My band "X" decides to play that "Hey Jealously" song and I need to "make" some guitar solo.
I know the chords in Verse - D | E | F#m | E | - No problem.
Next, I try to figure out what to play in D major
- "just look at the chord (D without getting into that D5/Dsus2 mess) and use the D major scale notes D, E, F♯, G, A, B, C♯, D in addition to the chord notes D F# A (just 1st triad) if needed."

While "noodling"/working on my first guitar solo, I unintentionally "discover" that (for some unknown to me reason) it sounds very pleasant to my ear when I play two eighth notes ostinato of G# and A :***: with that D major chord.

"But the D major chord scale does not have G#. What's going on?" .

I know the pitch G# is the scale note for F# minor and for E major, but...
How can I explain that nice sound of G# in D major?

My "imaginary" band's keyboard player (who can read music) says,
"Hey, man, it's easy. Just look at the key signature. It has 3 sharps. One of them is G#; therefore, just use G# EVERYWHERE in that song."

Anyway, I hope I was able to get my question across.

G# in Dmajor ... you have a D lydian ( the fourth mode )

 

[HandsFree]

And again: no, there is nothing modal about playing g#-a to a D chord. G sharp is nothing more than a chromatic leading tone to the 5th. That's tonality.
Ancient Greeks nor Gregorian singers have anything to do with that.

 

[Bob_Ross]

If you learned it, please name ALL THE AVAILABLE MODES for all 12 pitches.
You know I'm the MODE person.

there is no Mode or scale or key center with dodecaphonism/serialism. It is the whole point of that music

QFT. Asking what "all the available modes" of a dodecaphonic tone row are is like asking how many ducks it takes to drive a Toyota Prius. Aside from the fact that modes and rows both use musical pitches -- or pitch classes, actually -- they are (to quote the serial composer Reginald Smith Brindle) as unlike as chalk from cheese.

And while one could conceivably argue that rotations of a serial row are the equivalent to the "modes" of a major scale, that would mostly serve to demonstrate one's misunderstanding of modes.

 

[GastonD]

Do you find modes useful when you have a composition in the vain of Miles' "So what" or Coltrane's "Impressions". I mean, when you have two minor chords in a composition, obviously not coming from the same tonal center, how do you decide which color to add to those aforementioned rib bones? What makes such a grand majority of people use the note B and not Bb when playing over that D7?

I guess it's because the B belongs to the dorian mode there... To me, the bottom line is that, like so many thongs, modes DO have place, but tend to be over exaggerated and their meaning too extrapolated, thus contributing to the widespread confusion.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

Do you find modes useful when you have a composition in the vain of Miles' "So what" or Coltrane's "Impressions". I mean, when you have two minor chords in a composition, obviously not coming from the same tonal center, how do you decide which color to add to those aforementioned rib bones? What makes such a grand majority of people use the note B and not Bb when playing over that D7?

I think this is the type of thing where thinking modally really helps.

There are still other ways to deal with it though.

I've written stuff in the past that was technically modal, but where I didn't know it was because I didn't understand the theory. In my mind I was playing in "X" key, but "Y" was clearly the I.

For me a lot of it is how to organize the information in your mind. I think in terms of keys in anything diatonic rather than modes, just adding the odd note if a borrowed chord shows up.

In jazz-ish stuff I think in terms of chord tones and chromatics. There are certain norms for certain periods too. You can consider the notes in the Major, Minor, and Dominant pentatonics as the "safe" notes in most premodal tunes.

I think of any other specific scale as a palette and think diatonically within it.

The goal though is to hear something in my mind and know where to find that sound and just use everything else for exploring the options while practicing and writing.

 

[INTP]

Modes are a step on the path. They're not a religion. They're not even a destination.

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

—Donald Rumsfeld

In the end, it all comes down to tension and release.

 

[John Goldsby]

Hi HandsFree — Good thread . . . you got folks talking!

Ha, you know we firmly disagree on that one. Liking has nothing to do with it.
Church modes are used as a trick to learn fretboard patterns, but in many cases songs are mistaken for modality when they aren't. Of course there are exceptions and some of them have been named in this thread.

The phrase melodic minor and the seven modes found within that scale is a perfect example. Melodic minor is a tonal concept. There are no modes to be found there. Modes are something entirely different than scale points and treating them as if they are makes for false understandings about how chords function in a tonal context.
And there is very little to be gained from learning 7 starting point patterns of any scale. Except for players that are more interested in trickery than in understanding tonality.

I'll just point out that modes are not tricks and the Melodic Minor Scale is not merely a concept. It's a scale, and it has seven modes. It's been in use for hundreds of years, and its use has been widely expanded by modern classical and jazz musicians. Knowing scales and modes doesn't somehow negate an understanding of harmony, which can be functional (iii-iv-ii-V-I), modal (extended periods of one chord/scale sound), or a mix of functional and modal harmony (found in lots of modern pop/jazz/rock music).

...but in many cases songs are mistaken for modality when they aren't.

You're right about that. If you completely understand the harmony to a piece of music, you can analyze where and whether functional harmony or modal harmony is used.

As I point out in the article that Whousedtoplay quoted, you don't have to bother learning or understanding scales and modes—unless you want to fully explore modern jazz and classical harmony. A bass player can have a long, successful, fulfilling career by just thumping out roots and playing whatever seems to sound good. But understanding harmony (functional and modal harmony) expands a player's ability to hear and play good music.

Modes aren't a magic solution to add hipness to one's playing. Scales and modes are just building blocks of music.

 

[GastonD]

Two excellent points in a row:

In the end, it all comes down to tension and release

A bass player can have a long, successful, fulfilling career by just thumping out roots and playing whatever seems to sound good.

I tend to work mostly with chord tones and see everything else as approach notes, but it helps to know which ones to go for when connecting certain chord or chord tones when you need something else than chromatic ones from above or below.

 

[INTP]

With all my respect, I would not quote Donal Rumsfeld in this thread.

Sorry, I was a more than a bit indirect. I was obtusely referring to the Four Stages of Competence

And there is the Anthony Wellington's take on this:


I suspect that a lot of people presume that modes, and theory in general, are an end point. But I think this comes from being in the second stage (someone told them they "should practice modes/theory"), trying to decide whether it's worth doing the work that it will take to get to the third. But the third stage is a stepping point, and the promised land lies beyond this rocky terrain. But I could be wrong in this supposition...

 

[John Goldsby]

Hi INTP: I couldn't see the Wellington video for some reason, but I'd like to check it out.

Most people at Stage 1 don't even realize that Stages 3 & 4 exist, and if they're not so interested in the skill, then it doesn't matter.

As you say, theory is not an end point. Theory is just a post-performance description of why something sounded good. I think some people hear somewhere that they should "know a little theory," but it only serves to confuse them.

Music is only built with a few components: melody (interval patterns, scales, or modes), harmony (notes sounding together or moving in counterpoint), and rhythm (space and time). There are also other less tangible characteristics like tone, dynamics, inflection. And how your hair looks

It's up to the individual musician to decide how deep he or she wants to delve into the inner workings of music. There are a lot of great players who don't know much about theory. At the other end, quite a few bassists are drawn into wanting to know exactly why something sounds good. The explanation is part of the enjoyment.

 

[John Goldsby]

Hi INTP — Now I could see the video. Great stuff from Anthony Wellington!

 

[Lanky Tunes]

Modes are a step on A path.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Bob_Ross]

theory is not an end point. Theory is just a post-performance description of why something sounded good. I think some people hear somewhere that they should "know a little theory," but it only serves to confuse them.

There's a succinct quote by guitarist Ben Monder (in this recent interview where he and bassist Tim Lefebvre talk about working on the last David Bowie album) where he says "The ultimate purpose of all the theory is to enable your ears to hear things they wouldn’t normally hear without that knowledge."

I wish Freshman Theory 101 textbooks had that quote on page 1, it might help to eliminate an awful lot of confusion.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

Theory is just a post-performance description of why something sounded good. I think some people hear somewhere that they should "know a little theory," but it only serves to confuse them.

Exactly!!!!

Theory is a way to analyze something afterwards, which can help you reproduce similar things and, when you find that a lot of folks do the same sort of thing, see what the "norms" are for certain genres and eras within those genres.

It also give you a lingo to speak with other musicians.

Music is only built with a few components: melody (interval patterns, scales, or modes)

It is built with one of those: intervals.

Scales and modes are common grouping of intervals. You can use them to narrow the field, but it is only intervals that matter.

It's up to the individual musician to decide how deep he or she wants to delve into the inner workings of music. There are a lot of great players who don't know much about theory. At the other end, quite a few bassists are drawn into wanting to know exactly why something sounds good. The explanation is part of the enjoyment.

Yes.

The problem is that people, often with no understanding of musical history, start throwing words like "must" and "need" into such discussions.

 

[Lanky Tunes]

"The ultimate purpose of all the theory is to enable your ears to hear things they wouldn’t normally hear without that knowledge."

And the people who have become incredible and interesting musicians without this have just found other methods like imagination and exposure to a wide variety of music.

Unfortunately, it cannot work the other way around and too many people get caught up in thinking that music theory can replace the other two.

The simple fact that notation is an approximation seems to be outside of many people's' awareness.

Music was and always will be first an aural and oral tradition.

The death of the apprenticeship and the rise of the academic musician has pretty much made this a unrealized point for many.

 

[John Goldsby]

Whousdedtoplay: No hair is the ultimate hair statement

Music is only built with a few components: melody (interval patterns, scales, or modes), harmony (notes sounding together or moving in counterpoint), and rhythm (space and time). There are also other less tangible characteristics like tone, dynamics, inflection. And how your hair looks

It is built with one of those: intervals.

Scales and modes are common grouping of intervals. You can use them to narrow the field, but it is only intervals that matter.

Right — intervals are not scales, but scales and modes are patterns of intervals. I wouldn't go so far as to agree that "it is only intervals that matter." Scales and modes create various palettes of tonal colors important to the sound of a melody. I'd say that a scale is more than the sum of it's parts (intervals). But now we're digging pretty deep to find out what's the ultimate, most important thing found in music (probably no definitive answer there). Atoms matter, even though they are comprised of sub-atomic particles (Calling all TB physicists)!).

 

[INTP]

@John Goldsby I'm really glad you're weighing in here. I always appreciate your gifts by way of comments on TB.

Gotta love Ant. Just a few minutes of listening to him makes me both happy and inspired.

Most people at Stage 1 don't even realize that Stages 3 & 4 exist, and if they're not so interested in the skill, then it doesn't matter.

It took me a while to grasp this, and I wish someone had shown me much sooner. What did it for me was realizing that you can have small areas where your knowledge is unconscious, even while you're struggling consciously with other areas. Those brief moments of effortlessness have given me faith that the efforts to work through the exercises are worth it.

I think it's useful to point out small accomplishments, like after we work on a technique for a while, our fingers no longer feel quite like wet noodles when we play. Or after transposing several parts, we start to recognize certain intervals automatically. These small accomplishments give us faith to do the work, hopefully. You can tell someone (or yourself), "When you practice, you get better," but having some personal evidence to back that up doesn't hurt.

Music is only built with a few components: melody (interval patterns, scales, or modes), harmony (notes sounding together or moving in counterpoint), and rhythm (space and time). There are also other less tangible characteristics like tone, dynamics, inflection. And how your hair looks

I like to remind myself that there are only 12 notes. Doesn't seem so daunting that way. Of course, the combinations are nearly limitless...