the myth of modes

[Lanky Tunes]

That is a bold statement to say modes did not enter any bass players lines/mind until bebop???

Except I didn't write that.

I limited that statement to JAZZ musicians. What I say about what they were thinking is based upon what they themselves said and what was written by them and those who talked to and worked them.

Of course there may have been people who thought otherwise, but there is simply no record of it.

 

[okcrum]

Could you help me with my question about the Key /Tonality while dealing with those min7b5 chords?

A few months ago, in some thread about the bass notes with "min7b5 chords" I posted the following chord progression/vamp (Mushroo)/chord sequence(Bob Ross). There is NO MUSICAL VALUE in it!
It was nothing more than just my lame attempt to post a question about the bass notes with min7b5 chords.


View attachment 774722

Here is my problem. I still don't know what bass notes to play with those chords.
(If I follow my chord names and try to play the root of the chord on the bass, it does not sound good/right to me.)

So far, I have not received ANY specific answers from our TB members.
One highly educated and PRO TB member mentioned the importance of the melody in relation to the bass-line.
In order to continue with my question, I concocted some lame tune (value-free) but I still could not get answers to my simple questions.

Could you tell me the Key/Tonality for my chord progression?

Could you tell me if my "min7b5" chord progression is Modal or not?

Any suggestion about the bass notes to play with those chords?

Thank you in advance.
Short version just to figure out the tonality and the bass notes:
http://www.talkbass.com/attachments...3/?temp_hash=2bbb45b5bbdb365978001c9bc2dd2820

P.S. Dear OP, I will remove this posting shortly.

You could hear if there were a fixed key, but with constantly shifting tonal centers (can you hear those?) it doesn't sound like it. Look for the tonal centers (in this example they only last a beat or two) and play the transitions between them. A melody will usually (but not always) guide you there. The bass line for something like this is probably never going to sound "right" in the traditional sense. An ostinato may even work better.

Does this sound modal to you? Does it sound like it's in a key? What do your ears tell you? No matter what theory you apply, you still can't really play it if you can't hear it.

EDIT: From my own experience, there is a lot of music I had (and still have) to listen to. The times (for me) when I would hit a wall like this usually meant I was in territory where I had to do some listening so my ears could catch up. You can't just inhale stuff like Circle and play it without being able to hear it.

 

[Mushroo]

Thanks , where are those specific examples?

Specific examples I've mentioned so far in this thread include:

• "Prelude & Fugue in C Major" from the Well Tempered Clavier by J.S. Bach
• "Fugue in C Major" from 24 Preludes & Fugues by Shostakovich
• "Evil Ways" by Santana
• "Royals" by Lorde
• "Sweet Home Alabama"
  
• "Twist and Shout"
• "La Bamba"
  
• "Amazing Grace"
  
• "Mary Had a Little Lamb"
  
• Any and all songs featuring the 12-bar blues form

I am a big believer in referencing specific songs/compositions when discussing music theory.

 

[HandsFree]

P.S. Dear OP, I will remove this posting shortly.

Why? You have been a major contributor to this thread, and you may look at it by now as a discussion on tonality vs modality.
In which context the role of a m7-5 chord (where's that flat sign?) can be discussed as far as I'm concerned.

Not sure what you're really asking though. You have to dig deep into the far realms of tonal harmony to explain the chord progression you posted, and I'm sure someone will be able to if needed.
On what bass tones to play... Many players just treat it as a minor 7. Some avoiding the 5th for safety, others like to emphasize it.
Probably not the answer you are looking for, so indeed that may be worth it's own tread?

 

[joebar]

No knowledgeable musician would look at an Amin-D7 progression and assume "the scale is Aeolian."

true-the natural 6th gives it away.

the way I look at them that works for me is looking for the defining note of a given mode-

for example, in natural minor, the defining colour note is the flatted 6th- if you train your ear to listen for it, this note will be a strong indicator that you are in Aeolian, if you are in a minor key.

if you are in a minor key and you hear the natural 6th, that is a strong indicator you might be in a dorian type mode/feel.

if you are in a major key and you hear the #4th, you may be in a Lydian type feel etc.

these 'colour' notes greatly help you when on the fly. I strongly recommend training the ear to learn the distances between notes.

chord quality plus knowledge of how to harmonize a scale tells you what roman numerals they are.
min7 -Dom7 is ii-V
maj to maj is I-IV
dom7 to maj is V-I
( assuming the root moves a Perfect fourth)

-I think this can be explained in different ways-

Amin to D7 doesn't necessarily have to be a ii-IV; if the song never goes to a Gmaj, then it could be conceived that Amin is the I and D7 is the IV.
however, if the song does go to the G eventually, that throws all the theory for that for a loop. the interesting thing about this vamp is that it doesn't necessarily need to resolve to a G-it is quite happy living in the Amin. when I hear a progression like this, I know that the natural 6th is my secret weapon.
; I don't think for a second in terms of Gmaj in these circumstances.

a good example of using the #4th implying a Lydian mood is 'Refuge of the Roads' by Joni Mitchell.
she sprinkles #4th's throughout the song over numerous major chords including the tonic. the #4th is one of my favorites for creating colour within a major chord. that note is the secret weapon for creating rainbows and butterflies lol.

another example that comes to mind is a song that never resolves to the tonic-'Teenage Dream' by katy perry.

-two chord song; the IV chord and the V. it never goes to I. many people would say the song is in Eb but it isn't; it is in Bb. if you look at the chord tones you quickly realize the two chords are IV and V. this delay of resolution gives the tune an airiness and dreaminess due to the use of the D in the Eb chord (creating a maj7th in the vocal melody).

I like songs that avoid the tonic-its interesting.

 

[Mushroo]

Amin to D7 doesn't necessarily have to be a ii-IV; if the song never goes to a Gmaj, then it could be conceived that Amin is the I and D7 is the IV.
however, if the song does go to the G eventually, that throws all the theory for that for a loop. the interesting thing about this vamp is that it doesn't necessarily need to resolve to a G-it is quite happy living in the Amin. when I hear a progression like this, I know that the natural 6th is my secret weapon.
; I don't think for a second in terms of Gmaj in these circumstances.

EXCELLENT point!
I just gave "Evil Ways" a re-listen, and it sounds to me like it goes to the V on the line "this can't go oooooon...."
So based on your suggestion, I am tentatively re-categorizing "Evil Ways" as "i-IV-V tonal progression" and not "ii-V modal vamp."

I also did a little research on "Evil Ways" and found out it was not written by Carlos Santana, but rather by jazz guitarist Clarence "Sonny" Henry. As a jazz guitarist, Henry would have felt quite at home using natural 6 (aka Dorian mode) for a tonic minor chord. It's part of the jazz idiom and wouldn't have seemed unusual to him.

 

[HandsFree]

About those modes.
They are always present whether you like it or not.
...
This month, let’s tackle the melodic minor and the seven modes found within that scale..."

Ha, you know we firmly disagree on that one. Liking has nothing to do with it.
Church modes are used as a trick to learn fretboard patterns, but in many cases songs are mistaken for modality when they aren't. Of course there are exceptions and some of them have been named in this thread.

The phrase melodic minor and the seven modes found within that scale is a perfect example. Melodic minor is a tonal concept. There are no modes to be found there. Modes are something entirely different than scale points and treating them as if they are makes for false understandings about how chords function in a tonal context.
And there is very little to be gained from learning 7 starting point patterns of any scale. Except for players that are more interested in trickery than in understanding tonality.

 

[Febs]

Yes, a ii-V7-I is very common, but how about a iii-iv-ii-V7-I? Without understanding how modes work (again, whatever you call the scales is irrelevant) you are limited to chord tones.

I don't think that's true. You can easily come up with lines using non-chord tones just by recognizing that the whole progression is in the key of the I (whatever that happens to be), without ever thinking "phrygian, lydian, dorian, mixolydian, ionian."

That is a bold statement to say modes did not enter any bass players lines/mind until bebop???? Your probably referring to songs like "Impressions" or "So What" among many more that are modal. I am referring to everything from Take the "A" Train to to every song that has more than "2" chords in them. From Country to Rock, Blues to Funk and obviously Jazz.

Song in Key of C with walking bass line not written out.

C - F - Dm - G7 - C - Am - Dm - G7

Inexperienced players may think every minor chord is the same minor mode, or shape and they may think the same of the major chords as well.

However, by knowing the difference you have the knowledge and mental map to play a correct line (not referring to a walking bass line full of chromatics in it)

C - Ionian - cdefgabc
Dm - Dorian - defgabcd
Em - Phrygian -efgabcde
F - Lydian - gabcdefg
G7 - Mixolydian - gabcdefg
Am - Aeolian - abcdefga
B° (line should be through the circle) - Locrian - bcdefgab

In the end, no matter what you know or do not know. If it sounds good it is good.

You can get to the same place simply by recognizing that all of the chords in your progression are diatonic to C. You don't need to think "ionian, lydian, dorian, mixolydian, ionian, aeolian, dorian, mixolydian."

 

[Lanky Tunes]

"You don't not sound like Sonny Rollins because he knows some scale that you don't."

 

[basslust]

My ears mostly. When I listen to "Evil Ways" by Santana, I can hear it is not the same category of functional tonal harmony

What do you make of the D chord for the line "this can't go on" in Evil Ways if it is a ii-V progression? I'm really trying to understand different ways of looking at the song. I understand basic harmony but can't put the chords for this song together in any meaningful way, other than to say that they work well together. The shift up to D for that line creates a lot of tension, and it resolves back to the G. In that way, I always interpreted it to be like a I-IV-V, except that the I is minor. How would you analyze this in the context of a ii-V movement?

 

[okcrum]

Thank you for your comment.
Yes, indeed, I hear just ONE tonal center, not constantly shifting tonal centers.
I know it's only me but I hear a very strong MODAL chord progression that is a very close relative to the Flamenco Mode.
What's more, even my "lame/crappy/:***:extremely poor quality/etc... (kind of) "tune" was based on some kind of MODE.
Also, my problem with the bass-line for that .... chord progression is just because I've tried to treat the bass-line as chord not the MODE notes.

Here is a "crappy tune"-free version of the same chord progression. Can you hear at least some similarities to the Flamenco Mode?
http://www.talkbass.com/attachments...6/?temp_hash=1fad15decd77dcbbd5f9c3da01956534

Once again, thank you for your response to my amateur posting.

What I hear is what sounds like augmented 6th chords (I think that's what you're getting at) but the tone centers between them come and go, since there is no fixed key, and some of the chords are acting like substitutes transitioning into the next chord (and a new tonal center).

It sounds most to me like post-modal jazz (roughly the 1970s).

 

[tfer]

I don't think that's true. You can easily come up with lines using non-chord tones just by recognizing that the whole progression is in the key of the I (whatever that happens to be), without ever thinking "phrygian, lydian, dorian, mixolydian, ionian."

You can get to the same place simply by recognizing that all of the chords in your progression are diatonic to C. You don't need to think "ionian, lydian, dorian, mixolydian, ionian, aeolian, dorian, mixolydian."

If you can successfully navigate those changes, and resolve them properly, you already understand the modes, even if you don't realize it.

 

[Mushroo]

What do you make of the D chord for the line "this can't go on" in Evil Ways if it is a ii-V progression? I'm really trying to understand different ways of looking at the song. I understand basic harmony but can't put the chords for this song together in any meaningful way, other than to say that they work well together. The shift up to D for that line creates a lot of tension, and it resolves back to the G. In that way, I always interpreted it to be like a I-IV-V, except that the I is minor. How would you analyze this in the context of a ii-V movement?

The more I listen to Santana's version of the song, the more I agree with you it is a I-IV-V type of sound.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Thank you very much, Clef_de_fa for it. I think you were the first TB member to listen to that sound bite.


I was reprimanded by some TB members for using Bold Fonts, but I think just for you, I will break my promise.

There is NO MUSICAL VALUE in it!
It was nothing more than just my lame attempt to post a question about the bass notes with min7b5 chords.





Sorry I could not get any answers to my questions, but thanks anyway.

P.S. By the way, I've visited your youtube channel and "I just listened to your music and sorry but it sounded... JUST KIDDING!
It's just a joke.

for the record only min7b5 is what that sounded crappy.

And also shouldn't the bass note be the root of that chord ? I mean it is supposed to be the chord of the 7th degree on a major scale so play the root ? I don't see why you wouldn't play the root ...

 

[Eric Swaim]

I don't think that's true. You can easily come up with lines using non-chord tones just by recognizing that the whole progression is in the key of the I (whatever that happens to be), without ever thinking "phrygian, lydian, dorian, mixolydian, ionian."

You can get to the same place simply by recognizing that all of the chords in your progression are diatonic to C. You don't need to think "ionian, lydian, dorian, mixolydian, ionian, aeolian, dorian, mixolydian."

That's why it's called Music Theory instead of Music Facts. As I have said many times before, many paths to the same destination. "If it sounds good it is good"

 

[joebar]

2. The chords tell you the important things you need to know.

yep

D Lydian: Hey Jealousy - the Gin Blossoms

I think its straight up F# minor

I tend to agree- modes are just playing the major scale starting on different notes

nope

But there's only one dominant chord in the key of F: C7.

Wow. This was the most interesting and civil topic. What happened?

it still is; the fact that it hasn't been closed means that it is civil.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Could you imagine if somebody post a question about
"Twelve-tone technique"—also known as dodecaphony, twelve-tone serialism - a method of musical composition devised by Austrian composer Arnold Schoenberg"
The technique is a means of ensuring that all 12 notes of the chromatic scale are sounded as often as one another in a piece of music while preventing the emphasis of any one note[3] through the use of tone rows, orderings of the 12 pitch classes. All 12 notes are thus given more or less equal importance, and the music avoids being in a key. The technique was influential on composers in the mid-20th century.
Twelve-tone technique - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

P.S. I hope JimmyM does not promote his "chromatic scale" .

It is pretty cool, I remember studying that in music class. Not that much complex. In serialism you will often have the "matrix" thingy where you choose 12 pitches and if it is B1 it won't be B2 ever. And you'll have rythm figure too in those, this is when serialism start to be quite extrem.

Ron Jarzombek from Spaztik Ink and Blotted Science use a looser dodecaphonism and serialism rules but still, it offers some pretty cool thing but it is true that it makes more mind music than groove music.

 

[Don Kasper]

And, yes, I could argue for hours that it's F# minor.

(Not looking for a Bass-Brawl!)
I hear it more as in Amaj (the chorus feels like I - IV or Amaj - Dmaj). The verses are simply Dmaj(IV) to F#min(vi), with a passing Emaj(V) chord in between.
Once I've heard the Amaj chord in the chorus, I then hear the Dmaj (NOT as the I or Tonic, but) but as the IV chord.
You could say that the tune is in A, but starts on the IV chord (D). If someone asked me what key this is in, I'd say "Amaj", and if I wrote it out, I would use the key signature for Amaj (###).
But that's me.
Even the last chord (Dmaj) sounds like the IV chord, not the I Tonic (Amaj). ...Which is very cool, and "modern". IMHO.
I wouldn't think of this as a particularly "modal" tune BTW, but I've never sipped from the Kool-Aid Pitcher of Modality.
Just my $0.02
Thanks.

 

[obimark]

yep

I think its straight up F# minor

nope



it still is; the fact that it hasn't been closed means that it is civil.

Please do explain- because last time I checked each mode was EXACTLY that.

 

[Don Kasper]

P.S. What was that the bass doing around 3:42 with that A to D movement.

Hi WUTP!
I just hear the bassist playing a quick A to a D there, but the chord/tonality remains static on Dmaj. I don't hear any hint or delineation of a "A" chord in the guitars there.
Just my $0.03 (inflation!).
Thanks.